Compromise

nobius

New member
One of the biggest gripes between pro and anti gunners (other than the obvious), is that neither side will compromise. Well, here is your chance.

Hypothetically it has been determined that two lists will be combined into the next gun law. To accomplish this combining, two items must be picked from each list by each lawmaker with the top two from each list being used in the law. Choose wisely.

My choices will be revealed later.

List A: Pro-Gun

1. No Permit Carry (Concealed and Open)
2. Abolish the NICS Check (But keep the 4473)
3. Allow for non-violent felons to restore their rights
4. Abolish "Safe Storage" requirements
5. National Concealed Carry Permit
6. Redact NFA restrictions (Class 3 Items)

List B: Anti-Gun

1. National Firearms Registry
2. Ban on Handguns
3. Ban on Hi-Cap (10 round) Magazines
4. Mandatory 15 day waiting period on all firearms purchases
5. Assault Weapon Ban
6. .50BMG ban

These are the only items that can be chosen from, and two and only two from each list may be chosen.
 
A Redact NFA restrictions (Class 3 Items
National Concealed Carry Permit

B National Firearms Registry
Mandatory 15 day waiting period on all firearms purchases

did I do it right?
 
1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 from List A, nothing from List B. Compromise on rights is the slippery slide into rights extermination. Letting Feds determine who has a CCW is alos not wise. Merely enforce the Full Faith and Credit Clause.
 
The "pro" side of me would like to see #1 and #6 take place. The CCW law around here is an expensive joke, and every 17-year-old dope dealer is already carrying a 9mm without a permit anyway. As for the NFA, I'd really like to be able to fit one or more of my guns with a silencer (even the darned pellet gun) for quieter shooting on an indoor range.

The "anti" side of me might be able to tolerate #6 on that list, but that's it.
 
1st list

5. National Conceal Carry Permit - I do like the idea of checking the background of people who want to carry a hidden weapon. I will say that a better idea might be to do an intense background check with your first firearms purchase that is good for the same length of time as a CHL. This would eliminate the need for a CHL and expedite firearm purchases. I do not think they should check the status of student loans or other financial debts...focus should be on criminal and mental history.

6. Redact NFA restrictions - chose this simply because I don't care about any of the others...I'm a little leery of some people I know possessing a high cap fully automatic weapon to be quite honest.

2nd list

1. National Firearm Registry - least evil thing I can think of...it's not like the Feds cannot get state registry records anyway.

3. Ban on Hi-Cap mags - I might get crucified for this one. Out of the others this is the least practical concern to me. Are you really going to empty a 17 round mag in a self defense situation? I have no statistics but that seems a little unlikely. Using this mags in competition is another story but this one impacts me the least. Carry two 10 rounders if you aren't comfortable with 10.

I do not like banning any weapons at all, prefer the strict management of fully auto weapons and feel the waiting day thing is retarded...who's gonna go buy a gun in a murderous rage and go use it to kill someone? Maybe a few but not many, too many people watch CSI.
 
Option 7: bar any politician who even attempts to institute anything from the second list from holding any job in the USA, have their house taken from them, and have them permanently deported within 24 hours. They have no place in my country.
 
From OUR list, I choose:

1. No Permit Carry (Open and Concealed)
4. Abolish Safe Storage



From theirs:

1. National Handgun Registry
3. Fifteen day waiting period

My only added requirement be that this is the last law that can be enacted. No future laws restricting firearms in any manner shall be allowed. :D
 
3. Ban on Hi-Cap mags - I might get crucified for this one. Out of the others this is the least practical concern to me. Are you really going to empty a 17 round mag in a self defense situation? I have no statistics but that seems a little unlikely. Using this mags in competition is another story but this one impacts me the least. Carry two 10 rounders if you aren't comfortable with 10.

Talk to a Katrina survivor.

No law enforcement for weeks, months even. You're on your own. Nobody you can call for help. You hear the sound of a gang of looters whooping and hollering, breaking into a house down the block, smashing things, taking things, gunfire. Then you hear them headed for yours.

Still want to limit mag capacity, there?

And to whomever said "registry", NEVER. Registry = eventual confiscation. PERIOD. And in Canada, where their registry was hacked, registry = shopping list for criminals. People have had entire collections stolen, collections they never let anyone know they had, because criminals have the list of who has what.

Jesus H. Christ. If you want or would tolerate a registry, don't EVER call yourself pro-2A. Tear up your NRA card and go stand with Sarah Brady, because you're not on our side! :mad:

My choice? All from A, none from B. You can't negotiate with antis any more than you can negotiate with terrorists. Give an inch and they take a mile. Let them get their foot in the door and they'll keep coming in, come up and stab you in the back.
 
Well first i want to say that I don't like this game. I might be willing to support so called "anti" legislation if it was not a serious violation of our 2a rights and was proven to reduce crime. . . nothing on the "anti" list does.
Due to things i've been reading, im realizing that more and more, and it really makes me angry. So i'd really prefer "none of the above" of the things on the "anti gun list.

But i'll play along, if you like:

List A: Pro-Gun

4. Abolish "Safe Storage" requirements
6. Redact NFA restrictions (Class 3 Items)
(but possibly National CCW instead of number six. . . depends on how far we are redacting the restrictions. If we are just turning the clock back to pre 1986 levels, then fugadabouddit, i'd rather do national CCW, but if we are going further back. . . then redact em')

List B: Anti-Gun

4. Mandatory 15 day waiting period on all firearms purchases
I only pick this one if I cannot write the new assault weapons ban. :)

5. Assault Weapon Ban - Just make it illegal to use a weapon to assault someone! That will work great!

6. .50BMG ban - i feel bad about putting this in here, as I don't have a 50 and do not have anything to lose, but if it was between a 50 ban and a 1994 aw ban over again, i'd ban the 50's.

:mad:
 
Perhaps I should elaborate on why I find none of these second terms acceptable in any way. Why that I don't find it amusing even as an exercise at the thought of giving up an inch of anything to gun grabbing slime who are an unwanted side effect of having a country that doesn't deport people who try to screw it up from the inside because they ostensibly have good intentions and simply a different take on things.

I was and am a hunter first and foremost, grew up in an outdoors household. My dad, my grandpa, and everyone mentionable in family history on both sides chased dove, quail, deer, duck, and everything else around as often as income and gaps between wars permitted. Myself included. I'd rather be up in a deer stand or have a beautiful Belgian made Citori over my shoulder than just about anything else in the world. And when we weren't in the field we were on the water fishing for everything from bream to marlin. I had a very, very happy childhood and early adulthood, though it was very contained. I never bought anything for myself, rarely shot without the family there, nothing other than what my dad wanted to do except what I could read in magazines...and sit in my room and fantasize about doing someday. Everything was locked in a room and a cabinent, and only by more powerful external forces which I had little to no say did any matters of putting lead through paper come to bear. "When you get older and you can pay for it" was the answer to anything that wasn't in the plan. Only in turkey hunting was the individual me venturing out beyond that which was merely handed to me.

Then all of it vanished. I went off to school 4 1/2 hours away from my family's farm land and 5 1/2 hours from any fishing, and being encapsulated in a world of drunk 19-22 year old college kids for whom life was nothing more than hopping to the next keg, football game, and naked coed. Everything I knew how to do wasn't there, and what was there I didn't have any prior connections nor any particular fascination with spending half the time being stupid and yacking about nonsense with stuck up juvenile mentality soap opera characters with hollow lives and vapid thought and dialogue. But of course I wasn't the norm so something was wrong with me according to the rest of the world, so in attempts to reconcile things I tried to assimilate myself among the bizarre natives and their alien culture. It didn't work. My life took a downward spiral into isolation, alcoholism, depression, failure, and lack of completed version of either original and adopted/manufactured identity. I grew apart from both my origins and my surroundings having become something familiar to neither nor comfortable among much of anyone.

Perhaps in some act of grace of God my now future wife and I met, and by her being close to her family motivated me to get back close to mine. So naturally what would get me back to spending time with them and having something to talk about would be to get back to hunting, to trap shooting, to fishing, etc. And in that I re-evolved into my own. I shot more and more for practice to re-establish skills which had eroded or simply been dormant so long and had room and energy to grow. But something else was there. Though I had liked very much to do so as much as anyone, there was the new feeling of being able to expand beyond what merely existed by mandate and by manna, but much farther into the realm beyond...what I WANTED. What I could create. What was on MY to do list. ANYTHING. And I wanted more. Not merely to be essentially a tourist on land that I only incidentally happen not be a foreigner, and not to continue being a repeated novice every year, but to become instead a master at riflecraft, wingshooting, and taking of game for original purposes of fun and sport and family but now something much deeper. To enjoy the most pleasurable shooting there was, be it from an AR, a beautiful 1911, an old Smith revolver, a garage project 10/22, a pre-64 model 70...all of the above. The more to practice the more to enjoy, the more to love. To have it all for me, for her, for any kids that will come later. To then upon such occasion be the great dad I had, God willing, a granddad with a glass case that would hand the next Cyrus boy or girl his or her first .243 or over and under 20 gauge. To be a rare skilled person in an age where the click of the mouse, the tunes of an iPod, how much of a party animal your girlfriend/wife/mistress is, and the other meaningless idolatry of the ignorant, materialistic, trash cultured masses. And also to be master of shooting as an epicuran pleasure, the tradition of the British for whom the Rigby, the Jeffery, and the Holland and Holland were the tools and treasures of a powerful noble man who bestrode the globe as a Colossus. Not only did I shoot now as a birthright and as a hobbiest, but as bearer of the great light of civilization, as I was to read later in Jeff Cooper's words, one possessing that which is the pinnacle of that which lifted mankind out of the mud and up onto the throne of mastery of the Earth.

I had also gained an astonishing and brutal introduction to the immenent encroachment of those who wanted to take my lifelong held, now reclaimed world and smash it to pieces. I had never met anyone who didn't understand the world I grew up in, nor understood the magnitude nor mass of that which was indifferent, averse, or even of sworn hostility to it. I essentially awoke to a horror vision of an army marching upon my home. Entire cities of millions with voters, politicians, and activists--God help me, even BUSINESSES--with an aim to take from me, my newly found companion, my future kids (whom before her I had absolutely abandoned idea of ever being anything more than a distant hypothetical at best), and anyone I would ever know. Take from me everything I had, that I would work for, that my father and grandfather and uncles and great uncles had given me...everything I had growing up that ever mattered for more than a day's thought. Everything that no matter for how long had I bitterly, disgracefully, and utterly failed to sustain myself had never itself failed me. This beast has three masters. Those who sit atop it, riding upon it as a horrible mounted creature, itself a throne of power but moreover to carry them upon its back in battle for political office and influence within a system of power brokerage and influence. Those who pull its chains and cling to its hair, being powerless of their own and ignorant of those who own arms for purpose in the field, for their defense, or their leisure, pulling at the chains to have us devoured whie cowering underneath its supposed protection that its foul purpose pretends. And lastly those who merely lead it further in hopes to fill its hunger by eating others. The "Fudds" --a term I abhor because it demeans me by accident-- doing as they do out of ignorance not becoming of them, less isolated than the previous group by having some benefit of education but still a degree of isolation in their own world. The totally ignorant of cities and of the timid could be held not to know better, having not received the grace of legacy that the field men have--the traitors, however, know full well that the deal they seek to make with the devil is, intentions aside, with a devil which has not one drop of compassion for them nor a single ounce of loyalty nor a second's intention of preserving them to the last.

It was not until a significant education in history in depth and across the history of the world in addition to meeting all of her family and friends from the urbanized north east was it impressed upon me the reality of such problem and the necessity for repelling and extinguishing it. Also the almost apocalyptic problem of a government so far ahead of and omnipotent over its citizenry that almost any atrocity in history could be revisited by those of sufficient will and inclination. In short, it hit me that Sarah Brady was real, that Hitler and Stalin weren't a one shot deal, and all that separated them from being a loudmouth occasionally in a small section in the newspaper and black and white photographs from 60 years ago and being right here and now and pointed at ME is a little more than 100 million people who usually don't give a crap about anything that isn't on American Idol and SportsCenter, couldn't tell you all 10 Amendments in the Bill of Rights, and if someone wanted to take anything that was an elongated piece of steel with spiral grooves cut in it and make it a felony to touch one, they would shrug their shoulders and say "Oh well, doesn't affect me" OR WORSE "Dontcha know, Mrs. _____ down the street had one of those gang members rob her the other day. That's scary, I think they should ban those things" , 20-30 million who think "That won't happen, no way", and whatever else leftover being warring factions among themselves.


So in any case, I don't think anyone has the right to try to bargain away my rights in hopes of keeping what is temporarily theirs and if they ever had to be confronted about it would just throw up their hands, put down their guns, and go watch a football game. Don't know who you talk to, but it's not just some other occasion to do something other than watch TV--combined with fishing (which the same people who hate everything we love equally want to squelch) it's all of my life that's ever been anything to me. It isn't hypothetical to me, it's not anything other than crystal clear what is going on, and quite honestly, the idea that anyone simply sits here and takes it makes me sick to the core.
 
Yellowfin, excellent story.

And really, to me, a firearm passed down from generation to generation had, in the 19th and 20th century, become the equivalent of "Your father's sword, which belonged to his father before him."

That is VERY important to a culture. Every civilized culture did that for a long, long, long time. The Renaissance Europeans. The Greeks. The Romans. The Egyptians. The Japanese. The Chinese.

Other cultures had their equivalent, be it a spear or armor.

In ours, we have instead a mix of lawmakers who wish to take away your father's sword and destroy it, along with shallow people who will trade in their father's sword for the latest disposable status bauble.

My father has a beautiful M1 carbine that he's said will be mine one day. That means a lot to me, since it symbolizes him as a good man who raised me right, and since he's a Korea vet, it's part of that heritage as well. And the antis, in their H.R. 1022, want to ban the transfer of that carbine, declaring it an assault weapon that should be taken away and destroyed. Check the bill, it's right there on the list.

I will not negotiate with them. I will not tolerate their oily, simpering entreaties to compromise. They are the enemy, and they are be given no quarter. Ever.
 
My only added requirement be that this is the last law that can be enacted. No future laws restricting firearms in any manner shall be allowed.
Negative. Even the antis recognize the "camels' nose in the tent" theory. New York City did that with thier registration law back in the 60s, then used it in the 90s to confiscate lawfully held firearms. let one law in, and more will follow. No politician will ever be held legally to a promise.

Compromise leads to Neville Chamberlain's White Paper repeated.
 
List B: Anti-Gun

1. National Firearms Registry
2. Ban on Handguns
3. Ban on Hi-Cap (10 round) Magazines
4. Mandatory 15 day waiting period on all firearms purchases
5. Assault Weapon Ban
6. .50BMG ban
jeez...

Maybe a national firearms registry if it were given complete civilian oversight with the choice that states keep the information on their own database unless presented with a warrant from a federal judge yada yada yada and a bunch of other restrictions...maybe, but the rest are completely out of the question.
 
Wow. No matter how I try I just can't do it. I can't do without at least 3, 4, and 5. And the only anti-gun restriction I can even modify to be acceptable is the waiting period...I'd have to have an exception for first gun purchased, though, because a person has a right to self-defense today (I could stomach making them wait to simply expand their collection).

So, I guess I fail at compromise? ;)
 
My point exactly

Nothing on the first list should be given up, Nothing on the second list should be acceptable.

So why then have all of these* been implemented at one time or another?

Why does it seem that so many people restrict their comments to online forums, blogs, ranting in pubs, gripeing on the firing line?

It is time, past time even.

Join NRA, GOA, JPFO, State level firearm owners associations.

Write your Senator, Representative, Governor, Mayor, Police Chief, Sheriff, School board member, and anyone else you vote for. Let them know that if they do not take a strong pro-2A stance, that they will never get another vote from you. If they are directly elected officals (i.e. other than POTUS) remind them of how many elections over the years have been decided by one vote.

And to those of you who compromised. Take this to heart: Every time an anti has offered a compromise and it has been accepted, there has been no "give", all take.

Thus endeth the object lesson of the day.

*I know there has been no *Federal* firearms registry, but there are quite a few at the state level.
 
To quote Barry Goldwater -- "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

I favor all points in the first list. I stand opposed to all points in the second list. No compromise. Instead, what is needed is for the existing assaults on our freedoms to be rolled back.
 
The debate on RKBA really cannot be analyzed as a contract negotiation in which both sides seek an equitable agreement. The RKBA is more analogous to a linear spectrum in which absolute freedom and total restriction are the opposite ends of the spectrum.

The "pro-gun" proposals are simply a reduction of restrictions already in place and the "anti-gun" are simply additional restrictions.

Therefore, I imagine "gun-control" as a giant boulder and the landscape is sloped downhill toward total firearm restriction. Therefore, we must continuously push against the boulder simply to maintain the status quo. And sometimes, if the political winds are behind us and there are enough people pushing, we can actually inch the boulder up the hill ever so slightly.
 
I, too, cannot compromise any of my rights for any reason.

I wonder how you other non-compromisers feel about this letter from the NRA to the JPFO:

December 11, 2006

JPFO/NRA Have Different Views on BATFE

Recently a JPFO supporter sent a letter to the NRA asking about its position on the BATFE. As our readers know, JPFO has made it a mission to abolish that rogue agency and end federal control and regulation of your firearms.

In their response to our supporter, the NRA spokesperson, on behalf of Sandra Froman, president of the NRA, made several statements that are contrary to what JPFO believes gun rights organizations should support.

"...we support certain federal laws relative to firearms..."

"The Association does not object to many of the federal laws..."

"...greater emphasis should be placed on enforcing existing laws..."

"...NRA did not object to the increase in funding to BATF..."


We've reprinted the NRA letter in full on our website. We've also added a list of questions that the letter raises, as well as what we consider to be the best answer to those questions. You can read both at www.jpfo.org/nraletter.pdf .

If you agree that it is imperative to abolish the BATFE and end federal control and regulation of firearms, please download and share this letter (and our response) with everyone you know.

- The Liberty Crew

I've checked the link and it seems to be down. I will try to get my own copy uploaded.
 
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