Component tolerances

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kmw1954

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Wondering thoughts mostly along with some general observation.

I have been a member here now for just over a year and have participated in an followed a good number of topics about reloading. Have learned much and have confused some.

First ramble is that I seem to see three camps when it comes to loading practices and data. First are those that swear " stick to the manuals and reliable published data". Next come those that will say "manuals are just suggestions and not always reliable". Lastly are those in the middle of that and seem to go back and forth depending on their mood. I see this everywhere, not just here.

I also understand that there are many loads out there that data just does not exist for and we must make educated decisions on where to start.

So anyways, yesterday I was much under the weather and got really bored. So I went to my bench and found about a half a box of 100gr plated pistol bullets and just out of curiosity I wanted to know what the weight deviation was with these.. Boy was I surprised! As I said the advertised weight of these bullets is 100gr. and after weighing each one and separating them into groups I found I had 5 bullets that were at 95gr and 19 bullets that were over 105gr.

Now that is a 10 gr. spread over about 275 bullets. Think about it. in both the 9mm and 38/357 10 grains is a whole different bullet and loading. But here this is in one of the smallest of calibers so to me the results would be magnified.

Now along this line of thinking I also know many here spend great pains when pouring their powder charges. Many load light and trickle in the final weight and I understand that. The question now becomes why when the consistency of these bullet weights is so far off?

Anyways, I took those bullets that were at the Xtreme ends and culled them out. I just feel that +/- 5 grains is too much deviation on a 100gr bullet. Heck, most manuals have separate loading data for 95gr, 100gr and 105gr bullets.
 
Personally I think you are over thinking it. What brand bullets? Bullets, cases, powder will always vary in weight. Staying within the published data and life will remain good.
 
Well then if staying within published data should I then use the 95gr load data or the 100gr load data? After all the bullet is not 100gr. Same for those that are 105gr or 106gr.?

Is this over thinking it? or is it following the manual?
 
This is stimulating conversation.

Bullets vary in weight, size and component dimensions.

Powder probably varies in burn rate and energy produced per weight burned.

Primers likely vary in flash volume.

Cases vary in dimensions and hardness.

So???

Every process has variation. Considering the loads you are making, does sorting for bullet weight make the improvements you want? If not, you are just making scrap and waste.

At pistol accuracy levels, I'll bet it cannot be proven that culling bullets based on weight is significant.....10% accuracy increase.....or from 4" to 3.6" at 25 yds.
 
I completely understand variance and tolerance. I was expecting it when I started at the scale. I was just amazed at how wide it was.

Is it worth the time to sort pistol bullets? Probably not. What I am making right now is most likely more accurate than I am.

So what are the parameters? What are the edges of the acceptable tolerance. 5gr of bullet weight? 10gr, 20gr? Have to draw a line somewhere.
 
I completely understand variance and tolerance. I was expecting it when I started at the scale. I was just amazed at how wide it was.

Is it worth the time to sort pistol bullets? Probably not. What I am making right now is most likely more accurate than I am.

So what are the parameters? What are the edges of the acceptable tolerance. 5gr of bullet weight? 10gr, 20gr? Have to draw a line somewhere
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I see your point and again I'll ask what bullets are you using. I have not seen actual grain differences in bullets. tenths of a grain yes. Don't get insulted are you measuring correctly or did you mis-type your weights
 
It sounds more like a packaging error rather than variations in the manufacturing process. Do most weigh 100? Someone at the plant was probably being sloppy.

I'd guess the 105's are about 10% longer than the 95's and can probably be sorted out by just sitting them on a flat surface and eyeballing them.

On a somewhat related note - when casting bullets you can get a wide variety of bullet weights just by changing the lead composition. You can get a 215 grain bullet out of a mold that's supposed to throw a 200 grain bullet by just using an alloy closer to pure lead.
 
First, I haven't had that much variation in weight with commercial cast (mostly purchases from Beartooth Bullets) or jacketed bullets. But I have found variations in weight and diameter of the plated bullets I used (from one of the first vendors).

I always tell new reloaders to stick with the book loads, but also add to think a bit about the manual. For lead bullets I suggest Lyman, and for jacketed I suggest the bullet manufacture's manual, and to find a load in their manual before they buy components. After a bit of experience (and added thought) using load data from slightly different components is OK, as long as one is cautious and thinks about what the results, as in pressures will be.

Manuals aren't exacting formula or "suggestions", they are published reports of what the testing lab found when using the listed components. Just reading the intro in each section can tell you what components (which may vary lot to lot) and equipment is used and reasonable thinking will dispel the "suggestions" idea. For seasoned reloaders manuals give starting and max. load info so they can start the reloading of a new to them cartridge safely and develop loads suited for them and their guns.

Reloading isn't an exact science as nearly every component and tool can add variations (Different manufacturing lots of components. Different tool manufacturer's tolerances. Different wear and tear on tools, equipment and differing operator methods). Normally reloading isn't hazardous, if one uses the equipment between their ears, and can follow directions.

So, those are my thoughts and since reloading is very personal (as in choices and methods) I figger that as long as one is safe he can do almost anything for his reloading...
 
kmw1954 wrote:
The question now becomes why when the consistency of these bullet weights is so far off?
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None of us should abandon good reloading practices simply because we run into a product made/packaged/sold by someone who is unscrupulous or simply has poor quality control.

I do not cast my own bullets.

Among the various cast, plated and jacketed bullets I have purchased from both reputable and "fly by night" sellers, I have never experienced a weight variation greater than about 2%. I don't weigh every box of bullets I buy, just enough to be satisfied the seller has properly represented the product. For paper-punching and short-range hunting, a 2% variation does not call for an adjustment in the loading.
 
kmw1954 wrote:
So what are the parameters? What are the edges of the acceptable tolerance.
Click to expand...

I would set my standard based on the percentage of variation, not the absolute number. A 5 grain variation in 55 grain bullets is huge. A 5 grain variation in 250 grain bullets is close to immaterial.
 
I think what is missing is apply common sense to this when you look at the data.

Its not that picky.

I am looking as I write at Page 515 of Hornadny X manual.

10 bullets are shown.

178 to 180 train.

More shocking (I say shocking) is it range from 178 Gr ELD-X of the most modern design possible to the plain old 180 gr lead tipped round nose flat base.


And all are shot with the same mimmum and maxim powder charges. ???????

So where does that put our heroes as we have been told it has to be the exact make and shape?

Ahh the light comes on, start low and work up (Houndowgs be conservative)

If you do, then the indicators will tell you if you have a problem.

Just common sense and being safe starting with loads and you will be ok.

If you have a gun that has been put to the test and passed with flying colors, you can start anywhere you like, but its better to start low.

Percentage wise a few grain changes in bullets in small cases have a disproportional impact and then the flags should be up full time when dealing with those cases.

Double check those powder charges than can get two in a case etc.
 
Read the responses and lets start with this. mikld I have to agree 100% with post #9 and feel the same way.

The manufacture of these is one of the top 3 plated providers. Which one shouldn't matter as I'm not going to name a brand.

Then to my admission of faulty data and thinking. Or maybe it was the painkillers and my not feeling well. And now that I am more clear headed and can decipher my own notes. The actual weights were 99.5 gr to 100.7 gr. which is much better and much more realistic! So please pardon my blunder.

So I guess this is a perfect example of why to stay out of the loading bench when not feeling well and why one should always double check their work and their data. I also will add that this kept me busy for about 4 hours and did help me relieve the thoughts of pain I was in.

But also reinforces my thought that more plated data is needed from either the manufacture's of the bullets or the powder companies. I for one do not want to have to guess at a starting point and hoping that point isn't too high or too low
 
Worst case too low just does not eject.

I load only 5 or so on a start, often find that true.

I can shoot them up as singles.

Ok to check things not feeling good, just don't reload in that state!

Yea trust me, with a seriously rupture disk I have learned a lot about pain!

Back when I was riding motorcycles I had a bad mental day, ran a red light, good moves by the other guys and myself and no harm. Mad sure to see what mental state I was in and if not good then no ride.

Shooting the same, some days I go down and its just not there, wrap it up and come home and process stuff.

Working with 9mm you do have to be careful. Smaller stuff as well.
 
RC20 Thanks for the kind words. Had open heart surgery back in April and still feeling the effects. Especially in the leg they took the vein from. When I started this thread it was 4am after not being able to sleep.

Trust me everyone I do not mind being called out when I'm wrong or make a mistake. This will make me aware and be on the watch for in the future. Thankfully there was a foul with no harm!

But his did make me think of other aspects such as primer seating, measuring powder, bullet seating, among others. All of which combine together to make a finished round. Many of these things have been discussed quite extensively on their own and many people have very strong feelings about each of these aspects.. At this time I just seem to find it unusual that no one seems to exhibit the same passion about bullets. I may be wrong but it appears to me that most reloaders picture pistol bullets as one size fits all. Meaning a 124gr bullet is a 124gr bullet and should be able to be loaded just as any other 124gr bullet regardless of shape, style or manufacture yet we will argue powder type, primer brand or even the type of equipment we all use to get this done..

I will state that this exercise has given me improved respect for this product after realizing my mistake.
 
I'll let my thoughts blend into the rest of the posts:

It has been my observation that cast bullets tend to weigh a little heavier than advertised. But I don't recall a 10 grain variation in my weighing experiences.

Plated tends tends to weigh heavy too.

Jacketed seems to be more accurate in weight.

Loading manuals probably factor in component variances. Which would likely at least partially explain why some load data seems conservative.

It's been a while since I've weighed a bullet. Other than curiosity, the only reason why I've weighed bullets from a practical standpoint, is when I was creating recipes for competition and making Power Factor. In that case, you need to know the average weight of the bullet lot you're using so you know the minimum velocity required for PF.

Getting to my loading practices and data: I can be a stickler with published data, or deviate and use load data as a guideline. But not depending on my mood. It depends on load purpose and the kind of pressures involved.

If I'm loading hot ammo - especially with intermediate or at least not "magnum slow (re: W296)" propellants, I'll stick by the book and almost never exceed max published. And if I do, it may be only as a test, and not as the decided set load after the work up. A rare event in any case. Safety aside, I don't like tearing up my guns.

W296 is the wild card here. Current published data seems very conservative to me and doesn't allow this atypical propellant to reach its true potential. That said, I don't recommend that anybody exceed max published data for any propellant.

On the other side, with 38 target/competition ammo, for instance, I have hardly ever referred to published data. The pressures we're talking here are low, so there's lots of wiggle room in this circumstance. Also, there isn't a lot of data for 148 wadcutters etc. Same with 44 Special target shooters.

For rifle, I've only created one load for .223 AR - that's it. I referred to Sierra's published data for the bullet used (Sierra); and settled on a charge weight that is just a smidgen below minimum. Long story - It does what I need it to do. In the process, I tried different bullets/weights. In all cases, I used published data by the bullet's manufacturer.
 
Over the years that I have been stuffing cases, I have not found too many serious mistakes from the manufacturers. I have found two serious errors in two different load manuals and reported them to the people responsible.

Remember back in the days when Sierra first got started. They published their first manual and then commenced to send out corrections to the data in the form of amendments with instructions to replace that page with page number so and so.

The one prominent error that still sticks in my mind is I was loading for a 303 British some years ago and I bought a box of 150 gr bullets, 0.311" diameter. I loaded 18 rounds (6 each of a certain powder weight) for testing. I was shooting patterns (not groups) approaching 18" at 100 yds.

I could not imagine what went haywire. With the investigations that I did, it boiled down to the bullets were not 0.311" as marked on the box, but all miked a consistent 0.309". Weights were as consistent as anyone could hope for.

I haven't used that brand of bullet since that time and they are now a well known and favorite manufacturer to many handloaders. Don't ask because I won't reveal the name.
 
weather you stick the the manual or experiment depend's on the experience you have. The manuals are just a guide that tell you what they got with a certain load in their rifle and their conditions. With a new loader's I always not only stick to the book but use only one book and the one for the bullet's you have. I don't do that but then I've been doing handloading for close to 50 yrs now too.

Component's always vary unless they don't! I've weighter some bullets with big spreads like your finding and then I've weight some bullet's that every one in the box were exactly the same, very boring weighting them. For me it was Sierra Match Kings, only match bullet's I've ever used and generally as varmint bullet's.

I cast a lot of bullet's, well not by some standard's. I weight the rifle bullet's and pick an off the wall number and put them together +/- 2 grs. Just finished with 180gr 30 cal bullet's. Two box's, one at 181.7 +/- .2 grs and the other at 182.3 +/- .2 grs. I've done it with case's too. Want to really get confused? Weight case's! Other than case bullet's, I quit weighting bullet's long ago and I don't buy off the wall bullet's anymore. Got a bunch of old Herter's bullet's that would drive you crazy weighting! I did decide to try Speer Hot Core's again after about a 30 some odd year lay off, quit when Vernon Speer sold out. Couldn't believe the difference in weight but did find a load that I am more than happy with for now.

Someone said your over thinking this, probably so but then most of us do not take bullet's of different weight's and brands and try to make them shoot to the same point of impact and do it well. Rifle's do have preference's for what they like or maybe it's just the handloader's faith in the bullet's he's shooting, maybe both. I'm certain Nosler makes good bullet's, no question in my mind but I've never been able to get them to shoot! Quite sure it's in my mind!

There are liberty's you can take but you need the experience to know what they are. Example I use Nosler data for loads in my 6.5x55 because Hornady data was done on an old 93 or 96 Mauser, light loads in a modern rifle! I even used it with my Speer bullet's because they got higher pressure's. But, and there is always a but, I started below Speer's data and worked up!
 
I have not been reloading nearly as long as several folks on here. But I am generally curious and do a lot of experimenting.....I am firmly in the "manuals are suggestions camp. But!!!! Only after a lot of experience, trial and error, data collection etc.

I always tell new reloaders to stick to the manuals, because as long as you do, you will stay safe for the most part. But once you realize from your own experience that the manuals are suggestions, you certainly don't need my help.

As for tolerances, I have somewhat come full circle on reloading. I started sticking to the manuals, never worried about lot differences in powder, or brass, or primers, I just loaded mid range and had fun.

Then I decided I wanted benchrest accuracy out of everything....I weighed bullets, trickled powder, checked all case volume, sorted by ogive, plus many other activities on ammo being fed into guns that really weren't capable of even noticing such things.

For my purposes, and through a lot of experimenting, I have begun creating my own acceptable tolerances and they change by application. My F-CLASS ammo gets a lot of attention, the most by far where I do almost all the little things because the rifle is capable of taking advantage.

In my precision AR ammo, I do some of the little things. I also do some of the little things for my hunting ammo.

For pistol and steels AR ammo, I do a few of the little things, but not many because i am just not good enough to shoot better than 1" with a pistol off hand at 25 yards and if I can get 1-1.5 moa for steels ammo in my AR's, a miss would be entirely my fault.

So in your case, as long as I wasn't pushing the max, I would load them all up, and shoot them as if I never knew they varied in weight. See how they shoot.

Or better yet, shoot the ones that are closest in weight against those further from average and see if it makes a difference.
 
I would not change my load any. I would load and shoot as normal, but I would never buy that brand of bullets again.Jacketed bullets are generally the most weight consistent of all bullet types including cast lead & swaged lead. I generally buy Magnus swaged lead 185 gr HP 1000 or 2ooo at a time and often pull at random sample of 50 bullets and chart them. My last sample of 50 had a total weight variation of .5 of a grain. Cast 185 gr .45 auto cast lead bullets vary considerably more, maybe 4 to 6 grs total variation.
 
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