compare .45 ACP & 10mm

[legacy38]

I'd like to see a true comparison of the
.45 ACP and the 10mm.

I enjoy the 9mm for target shooting, but I like a more powerful round for duty/defense use. I'm not a fan of the 40 S&W. I've never fired a 10mm, but I like what I've read about the round. I know that the .45 ACP is a time honored round, but the 10mm intrigues me.

 

[e a c]

It's my understanding that the 10mm develops way more kinetic energy than the 45 ACP. A better comparison would be between a P+ 45 ACP. Even then, the 10mm is still more powerful. Energy approaches 41 magnum levels!

 

[Art Eatman]

Well, the 9mm is a little bullet goin' fast; the 10mm is a bigger bullet goin' fast; and the .45ACP is an even bigger bullet goin' slow.

The 10mm approaches the .357 Mag in performance.

In my own experience witht he three, the 9mm is easiest to shoot accurately, since there is so little recoil, particularly in comparison to full loads with 10mm & the .45 ACP.

To me, the felt recoil of the 10mm & the .45 ACP are about the same...The 10 is probably a little stronger, really. I dunno. I'm real happy with either my Delta Elite or my Lightweight Commander as social guns.

And some of it's ammo, as well as "shootability", as far as self-defense. "Test results" indicate that the CorBon & HydraShok bullets work well...I imagine I wouldn't want to be hit with a Glaser.

 

[Covert Mission]

I asked noted 1911 builder Richard Heinie just this question. He is a fan of both 10 and .45, but particularly likes the 10mm for hunting and defense. He gets near .41 mag performance. The biggest plus is that he says the 10mm may be the most accurate caliber he's ever seen in an autoloader.

Quote: "This is the one of the most accurate rounds that I have ever shot. Dick Metcalf, Frank James and Walt Rauch will also agree. With the 10 you can also have a round which is very close to a 41 Mag in a 1911."

Some have predicted that now that SV and STI have passed the 500 production mark with their hi-cap 10mm's and are now IPSC legal, the 10mm may pull ahead of the .40 as the preferred caliber in IPSC Limited class.

I'm intrigued by the 10mm, but want fewer calibers in my collection, not more! 9mm and .45 it may be, unless I get some free money to get a 10mm 1911 built.

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited November 04, 1999).]

 

[Red Bull]

Hello, Legacy:

I am a HUGE 10mm fan. I have been from the start. I like more power! I just practice alot and have been shooting a long time, so recoil is not an issue for me...in fact I LIKE it. Read this link for a good comparison of the 10mm vs .45.

Look at the 10mm Advocacy article (by Thomas Martens) :

http://www.greent.com/40Page/


I am also a big .45 fan when I want a nice light load Yes, the 10mm does "kick" a little more than the .45. I have shot my Glock 30 and my Glock 29 next to each other. The 10mm kicks noticably (but not a lot) more, but with very little practice to get the timing down and get used to it, I have no problem shooting it just as well as my .45.



The 10mm blows away the .45 in every area: energy, velocity, expansion-probability, penetration through barriers, capacity, trajectory, versatility (If you reload and hunt, and want a cartridge that can do everything from home defense to medium sized game hunting).
I like what I call "magnum" rounds like the 10mm because you don't have to comprimise. You don't have to decide between a heavy penetrating bullet and a light high-energy bullet. You get both. you get a heavy bullet, moving fast, with lots of energy. It makes an explosive high-energy entry, followed by deep penetration, which is something a lower-powered cartridge just doesn't have the power to do both. You have pick your tactic, the heavy penetration bullet or the light high-energy bullet, one or the other. I like both. Rounds like the 10mm have enough power to give both.
As someone who has had to use a gun in self defense, I can appreciate the feeling of wondering if you have enough gun when you go for it, or if you picked the right round (the heavy-penetrator versus the high-energy, shallow penetrator). With rounds like the 10mm, I don't have to wonder if I picked the right round: as long as I do my part there is not even a little-teeny doubt in my mind that it will. That gives me great peace of mind.


But, out of the smaller guns and shorter barrels, the 10mm does lose a bit of it's juice.
Much like shooting a .357 Magnum revolver next to a .38 Special revolver, (both in the snubby 2" variety), they both have similar velocities because there is not enough barrel to take advantage of the extra powder in the magnum cartridge: it all turns into muzzle flash instead of velocity as the powder burns out the end of the barrel.

It is the same case with the 10mm. I stick to the 10mm for my longer full-sized handguns, and the .357 Sig for my shorter-barreled concealed guns.
Give the .357 Sig a serious look if you are not impressed with the .40.
Amazingly, the .357 Sig has MORE impressive numbers than even the 10mm, when compared in short barreled guns: more muzzle energy, more velocity, more accuracy according to tests, more reliability, and less muzzle flash. The bottleneck cartridge of the .357 Sig allows it to use it's powder more efficiently out of the shorter barreled gun.
Take a subcompact .357 Sig like a Glock 33 and compare it to a compact 10mm like a Glock 29. and you will be impressed at the .357 Sig. Amazingly, the .357 Sig, in comparable compact guns, puts out MORE energy and velocity than even the 10mm. That is out of a much smaller gun. That is impressive!
You may have not looked into it, but if you are looking for a round that penetrates deeply, penetrates barriers well, and has TONS of energy, look into the .357 Sig. It took a lot of reading around before I grew to appreciate how cool the .357 Sig is, but for power-fanatics like myself who like a cartridge that puts out lots of energy AND penetrates deeply, the .357 Sig is the way to go in the compact guns.
Read this thread if you want to know more, it defintly made me a fanatic.

http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Forum20/HTML/000073.html


I am trying to cut down on the calibers in my collection too, but tend to be cutting out the popular cartridges. In general, people are not that informed about their cartridge selection (I don't mean here on the forum, I mean the general shooting populace), and they are generally wimps when it comes to recoil. So, the popular cartidges are the lame ones, IMHO, because they tend to be low-powered to appease the masses that can't handle some recoil. That is why the 10mm did not take off at first, but the .40 caliber did instead (that's the main reason anyway). I am hoping the 10mm does take off now. Sources say that 10mm ammo sales are on the RISE.
My two favorite guns, FWIW, are my Glock 20 full-size 10mm, and my Glock 32 compact .357 Sig. Both of them put out lots of power for their size and are very controllable to me (I do compete in courses against the clock, and have no trouble keeping up with the old timers, so I am not talking about just standing at the range shooting paper).

I hope that all my blabbering helped, but if you read the links I posted, you will get a real good idea. The 10mm Advocacy article linked above will give you exactly the information you are looking for in regards to the .45 versus the 10mm.


Ps- I LOVE the .45 Super too, but I am just looking for a good platform to shoot it from.



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited November 04, 1999).]

 

[Mikie]

I have been shooting for over 25 years but only in the past year have I been firing/reloading 45 ACP. I bought a USP45 because it was an entry way into firing the 45 Super which from the specs I've seen make it equivalent to the 10mm in KE. I haven't started shooting the Super yet but have really come to appreciate the versatility of the 45 ACP. Triton offers a 45 +P with a 185 gr JHP which I chrono'd at it's advertised velocity of ~1150 fps, ~543 ft lbs KE. If it's a powerful defense load you need I don't see how you need to go much higher than that. The 45 Super can go up over 700 ft lbs with a lighter bullet! On the other hand out of the same gun you can fire target loads that are down just below 300 ft lbs of KE.

The 10mm is intriguing though because it is a high power cartridge by design(and was so powerful that it lead to the development of a weaker cartridge, the 40SW). The 10 probably offers similar versatility in loadings as you can download it to 40ish velocities if you wish. Factory ammo availability has a long way to go when compared to the 40 and 45. Still since 90% of what I shoot are reloads I still see a 10mm as a future buy even if factory ammo availability doesn't improve(as long as I can still get brass)!

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[EQUALIZER]

I agree with Mikie.

My favorite load used to be the 10mm in its hot 135gr defensive load....that is, until .45 Super came on the seen. I liked 10mm when it was hard to find ANYONE to agree. But now I believe that there are some serious advantages to the .45 Super if you don't already have a 10:

1. Greater power (by small but significant margin).

2. Lower chamber pressures when comparing apples to apples: similar bullet mass and velocity.

3. Every bit as versitile as the .44mag or 357mag. Why? A: You can use downloaded 45ACP OR hot 165gr Super dupers (which surpass 45ACP +p ammo of ANY loading.

4. You can use readily available carbide reloading dies for 45ACP. You can get the same carbide dies for 10, and still have a great range of versatility. I am just saying that the Super has no disadvantage in this area, esp if you want to use cheap 45ACP brass. As always, CHECK YOUR HEAD STAMP AND DOUBLE CHECK BEFORE RELOADING (this is the one draw back....extra care in not using week ACP brass for hot Super loading). IMHO a fully supported chamber is the sensible way to go for reloaders. One well know smith uses nonramped and two peice barrels, but the $ savings is not worth it in my opinion, although either will work.

There is one advantage to the 10mm that I can see:

*Narrower diameter for high cap double column mags. Of course those "legal" one that you can find. For IPSC this may be good, but I'm not an IPSCr, so others are more qualified in this area to answer that one.

BTW: 45 Super is an ideal cartridge for a compensator. 10mm Should be good too.


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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)

 

[RWK]

Red Bull's analysis is right on target, except (IMHO) for one factor he neglected to discuss: cost. Presuming "factory new" ammunition, it is considerably cheaper to practice with generic 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP than with 10mm. Further, with 10mm a relatively little used round in comparison to the "universal" .45 ACP, I believe this cost trend will probably continue.

All that said, the 10mm is a great round -- bigger than the 9mm, the .38 special, the .357 magnum, and the .357 Sig plus more muzzle energy than virtually any common CCW round.

 

[Edmund Rowe]

This is just my biased opinion, but for defense I like the plain vanilla .45 ACP (not the .45 Super) because it's a much lower pressure round than 10 mm. This means:

-Not as much flinch from the noise when I shoot (I hope)
-Longer life of the handgun (I hope)
-Less dangerous kabooms if they ever happen (maybe)
-softer kick. I find the .40s and 10mm handguns to have a sharp kick.

As to EOTBD (effects on the bad guy), I think the 10mm is more powerful. However, (and I don't have much to back up my opinion) the difference isn't very much as the two calibers are still HANDGUN calibers.

As far as handguns go, if/when I meet TPTWS (the perp that wouldn't stop) a failure drill to the CNS (central nervous system) through the ocular region (eyesockets) is in order. After I got some professional training and I feel confidant in doing a failure drill well if I have to, I'm not too concerned about 9mm vs .45 vs 10mm.

Another thing is, if I'm REALLY serious about stopping the perp, I'm not going to agonize over a different handgun. I'm going to ponder how to bring a rifle or shotgun with me more often than not.

My amateur opinion only. Worth everything you paid for it.

Edmund

 

[Futo Inu]

One thing reported here is backwards: The .357 Mag approaches the 10mm in performance, in same bbl lengths, not vice versa. Also, I'm no expert, but I wouldn't think it advisable to EVER load a .45super load in acp brass, even if brand new. .45 Super is da bomb, if you can find a gun made well enough to stand up to the abuse. In my G29 10mm, I've got a 21-lb dual spring assembly, but I still doubt the gun will last nearly as long as say, a 9mm.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 05, 1999).]

 

[4V50 Gary]

For personal defense and duty use, the 45 ACP is my choice. For hunting or running about in the woods, I'd take my Glock 20 in 10mm.

 

[James Montes]

Statistically the 10MM is an awesome round, but as a man stopper I still favor the .45ACP. The .45s slower speed tend to make it a candidate not to over penatrate its target! It has a better reputation as a reliable feeder in the modern 1911. The 10MM though faster, is in my experience, not as accurate as the .45ACP cartridge. At least not in the weapons I have fired! All and all both are good cartridges, but I like COVERT MISSION do not want to add more cartridges to my collection. I will stay with .22lrs (inexpensive-plinking), .357SIG/.40S&W (for my sub-compact CCWs guns) and AMERICAs favorite cartridge .45ACP (for everything under the sun!). I have a lot of experience with the 9mm from being in the military yet I do not own a weapon chambered in the 9. Again it is a good cartridge I just do not care for its reputation as a failure in man stopping scenerios!

I.E. This past DECEMBER a MARINE was shot by another MARINE down here in GTMO, CUBA while playing "QUICK-DRAW." The MARINE was shot point blank through the heart with a 115gr. 9mm FMJ mil-hardball ammo. It took hours before the poor DEVIL-DOG eventually died in the E.R. Some may argue that it was the 9mm mil-FMJs that are designed to incapacitate not kill... However...
Had it been a 230gr. FMJ .45ACP I am sure the outcome though just as lethal wound have occured much quicker if not instantaniously.

Though the 9MM is a killer like all cartridges there have just been to many DOCUMENTED accounts of its lack of stopping and dropping power for me to whole heartedly accept as a carry cartridge. And I still resent the fact that NATO crambed the 9mm down our throats in the 80s, in favor of the timely proven .45!
Ask any MILITARY MAN "IN THE KNOW!" with weapons knowledge and they will take the .45 over the 9, 99% of the time! Regardless of other factors (i.e. mag capacity, felt recoil etc .

Don't want to get to side tracked on the 9...

In conclusion, the 10mm is a good cartidge that appeals to those fascinated with the exotic! It is just that... Exotic... the .357SIG is about as exotic as I will go for now... I am one of those, who don't think it is just a PUMPED up 9, but a legitamate cartridge in its own right!

The .45 has been around for a long time and I don't see it going away...

The 10mm is a rarely consideration cartridge when choosing a weapon; and its popularity has not increased, even with its impressive ballistic stats.

Decide for yourself, me, I am a .45 man til the day I depart!

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SURE SHOT

 

[Jorge]

Futo Inu,
Can the 10mm shoot a 158gr JHP at 1475fps? (check Georgiaarms.com)The bigger "hot" bullets are about the same. 200@1200