compact 45 self defense

L

laktrash

New member
I know this has been discussed over and over but I have several several compact 45's. I have always used 230 grain fmj with no issues. But thinking about some self defense ammo maybe the new hornaday critical defense or carbon powerball My concern is reliability with the compacts. Some say they have issues with compacts mine have all been totally reliable. Its a little expensive to fire several 100 rounds to prove reliability. Any imput on these two choices or a better choice I'm happy with fmj but I keep seeing over penetration in alot of discussions.
 
I like the 4-inch Commander sized pistols. But I have a Kimber equivilant to the Officer's model and had a Colt Night Officer at one time.

The 230gr ammo performed fine in the smaller guns. But when I switched to using 185-200gr ammo, I was shooting much tighter groups than with 230gr. I think the extra velocity gained with the lighter bullet helps here. Since then, when I carry the Kimber, it's stuffed with 200gr JHP ammo.
 
You need to learn how to use the search function.

There is no reason to use FMJ ammo as carry ammo in a .45 acp, unless you are constrained by the Hague Accord.

Period. End of story.

Edited to clarify my position. FMJ for practice, JHP for carry.
 
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I know how to use the search function, as I stated this has been " discussed over and over" I just wanted to limit it to some personal imput on the compact 45's. My primary is S&W CS45 (2) also sig p245, detonics combatmaster and even a bersa uc 45. I certainly don't understand not using fmj which has been around for along time just to waste money on expensive self defense ammo on paper targets at the range once you have established reliabilty and was trying to narrow the field.
 
I carry nothing but 230gr hardball in my AMT Backup, Colt Defender and Colt Commander. No malfunctions. I practice as much as I want to with my carry ammo. .45 hardball is certainly not the worst thing you can carry.

There are no absolutes in ammo selection other than you have to be able to hit what you are aiming at and that the gun will go bang when the trigger is pulled, sometimes more than once.

So... hardball improves my ability to hit what I am aiming at since I can afford to shoot so much of it. My gun goes bang when I pull the trigger until the mag is empty since it has proven reliable with all my guns.

I am proficient. I am confident. I am happy with hardball in .45acp.
 
I do not know about the other 45's you listed but my Bersa has eaten every type of ammo I have put in it. It realy seems to perform well with Hornady XTP 220 grain JHPs. I recomend trying a few of the defense rounds to ensure reliability and to see if they match up to POA at defense distances.
I had a hard time doing that on my tight budget. Most of the defense rounds tend to run about $1.oo a round so I just ran a few at first. I can also say I would have absolutely no problem at all with using Ball rounds if I had to.
BTW Pow'r Ball feed like ball rounds, just fire a few to check how they match up to point of aim with the sights.
 
OK:

So your question is:

These rounds:
thinking about some self defense ammo maybe the new hornady critical defense or carbon powerball...

in these guns:

I just wanted to limit it to some personal imput on the compact 45's. My primary is S&W CS45 (2) also sig p245, detonics combatmaster and even a bersa uc 45.

I have one of the guns you list. I will not use either of the above rounds in it.
I did find powerball feeds well, since all it really looks like is FMJ, and that is flawless in my gun.

I like Gold Dots, either 230 or 200 grains, in either Double Tap or Buffalobore ammunition. Both feed extremely well in my gun.

I would look at 230 grain flat points from Double Tap as well.

One reason I like ball, or flat points, are that most commercial 'sd' ammo penetrates about 14" in ballistogel. If your bad guys are high on drugs, and alcohol, which about 80-95% of violent criminals are, you may want more penetration then SD ammo gives you.

On the otherhand, if you are in a situation where your requirements are the same as the LEO standard most ammunition is designed to emulate, by all means spend a lot of money on ammunition that doesn't penetrate more then 14" in ballistic gelatin.
 
So you are saying you want a round that is guaranteed to feed, guaranteed to "expand" to .45 cal 100% and leave a hole that big:D and has penetration? Then I guess you are left using the ancient friend of the GI, .45 ball. I wonder how much the occurance of over penetration occurs, given that those shorty barrels drop it from 800+ to who knows what FPS? I suppose that in short barrels, you might have to consider something exotic to practically insure no excess penetration, as they might not expand very well or at all anyway, and then penetrate more regardless? This is all just speculation, you could go to some websites where they have slaugtered alot of jello to "prove" one thing or another, maybe read some accumulated actual field results somewhere to get an idea besides just the dessert massacre reports.
 
I'd be cautious with any Pow'R'Ball ammunition. I bought some .357 Pow'R'Ball ammo for my S&W Model 60, and found that the cases jam and cannot be extracted from the revolver using the extraction rod. To get them out, I have to poke each expended casing out individually with a long, thin rod.

This isn't due to a problem with my gun. I've tested the Pow'R'Ball on three occasions, two of them after carefully cleaning the gun til it was pristine. On all three occasions, all of the casings jammed. I've also shot four other types of .357 and several types of .38 special (both FMJ target ammo and +P SD ammo) through the gun, including Speer Gold Dots, Winchester Silvertips, and Hornady Critical Defense. Nothing else jammed on any occasion;all of the casings for all of these types of ammo extracted cleanly when I shoved the extractor rod.

I'm told that CorBon has some good SD loads, although they tend to be very hot. My experience suggests that the Pow'R'Ball might not be such good self defense loads, though; having to individually extract spent casings before you can reload would be a major hassle if you were in a self defense situation.
 
So back to my orginal way of thinking there is nothing wrong with using the.45 ball that has been around forever. I see these ads and wonder if I'm making a mistake by not staying up to date with technolgy. I carry jhp in my 640. Some compact 45's can be finicky and you can't over penetrate with a FTF
 
I can't think of anytime, in my lifetime, that has been worse for buying fancy SD ammunition.

If you get lucky, and find a deal on ammo, ANY kind of ammo, that allows you to buy enough to test, and shoot, do it. Otherwise, ball works, and, until sanity comes back around, read the ammo companies catch up with demand, prices will come down.

I think if I had not already found 230 grain Hp Gold Dots that work, I'd buy enough of Double Taps flat points to make sure it feeds, and, stay with that.

I've got a 9mm, and, I've bought some HST, which I got at a great price, and bought enough of it so I know it works, 147 grains. And, I'm buying American Eagle 147 grain flat points, and, may carry that, when over penetration is not an issue.

Searching for the Holy Grail of defense ammunition right now is an expensive, and I think, point of diminishing returns issue. In particular, with so many small guns, trying to find one load that works is not going to make that much of a difference.

I will say that there is a pretty big difference in 45 ACP between a solid, ball, at .452" and nearly one INCH hole that some of the Gold Dots will expand to.
There is also a huge difference in penetration, the Gold Dots going about 14", ball forever.
45ACP%20230gr%20FP.JPG

The fastest 230gr FMJ-FP in existence! A great woods load for the man who carries a .45ACP. The thick jacket helps the bullet to keep its shape while the flat point crushes as it penetrates. This is the hiker's dream loading for his .45ACP. This powerful loading comes in boxes of 50!

Caliber : .45 ACP

Bullet : 230gr. Full Metal Jacket - Flat Point

Ballistics : 1010fps - 521 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl.
Box of 50rds.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/ca...ucts_id=156&osCsid=bn6nl8ueqsa10nfq6dcebb6983

or
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/ca...ucts_id=277&osCsid=bn6nl8ueqsa10nfq6dcebb6983

I REALLY wish Jim Downey would test these loads for velocity.;)
None the less, if DT is getting 1010 fps in a 5" barrel, it indicates it should do very well in the shorter barrels...

Here are Mike McNetts' results from his .45 ACP loads, he's the owner of Double Tap, and, an excellent loader:

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

The last figure is the expansion of the bullet, and, I'll take .95" everyday over ball ammo.
 
The question being, can you find them, can you afford them? Especially firing a bunch for function testing. I guess if you are gonna carry, you gotta bite the bullet and spend almost a couple hundred bucks for enough of that 40$ a box stuff to be sure it is really the thing it claims to be and will work for 200 rounds or whatever is the current reliability test for HP ammo in a potentially picky gun.
 
I've had pretty good luck with Remington Golden Sabers and Gold Dots from various manufacturers. Speer makes Gold Dot cartridges but also sells them for others to load -- Buffalo Bore and Georgia Arms to mention a couple.

Both the Gold Dots and Golden Sabers have front profiles somewhat similar to a FMJ but also expand pretty well. I would suggest you try one of these and if it feeds reliably, use it as your carry ammo. Don't try to figure out if your gun will shoot all the different types of hollow points out there. It's too expensive. You will need to put about 50 or more trouble free rounds through your pistol before it's good to go.
 
In my Colt Defender and Detonics I use 185DPX +P Corbon I have never had a feed issue with DPX in any auto or caliber I have tried. Of course your results could differ. I would use 230 Ball as a last resort I found compacts really sap the FPS from these rounds.
 
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

Jim Downey's website clearly shows that the bullet is really irrelevant when comparing commercial ammos to how well the powder is matched to barrel length. So, you have to buy a bunch of this ammo, and, it all needs to be from one lot of ammo, so, hopefully, the rounds you put in the gun have the same powder that was in the ammunition you tested.

230 grain ball is not immune to the ammo company using a very slow burning powder, unsuitable for short barrels. What I've found is American Eagle uses a really high recoiling powder charge, that kicks about as much as common 45 Super loaded by Buffalobore, with equal bullet weight. Since I bought something like 500 or 1000 rounds, I have been able to say it's at least consistent.

I think the blessing of ball ammo is that given the bullet design, and the design of the 1911, it allows a wide variety of powders to be used, and, for the gun to still cycle.

I'm unconvinced that the major ammo companies use powders that are consistent from lot to lot, and, I'm also convinced that spending a ton of money to test fire ammo in your gun, 200 or so rounds, is in a way an oxymoron, since the next box you put in your gun might not have the same type of powder.

I will say I think the premium ammo producers are more likely to run one particular lot, with the same powder, and bullet, in large quantity, then the big 3. If you insist on getting ammunition from Hornady or Remington, I'd let someone like

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

do the testing to see if the ammunition you are considering is suited for your barrel length. 75 rounds should be enough to find out if that particular charge
and bullet design works in your gun.

By first checking to see if the powder is suited for short barrels, i.e. it generates full velocity in relatively short barrels, compared to the other ammunition, you have taken out one huge variable: slow burning powder not designed for short barreled guns, resulting in large amounts of unused powder, or muzzle blast, and a pressure curve that does not build aligned with the impulse required to cycle the action on a 1911.

Also be aware that things like "designed for short barrels" , "low recoil",
etc. on the outside of the box may or may not have anything to do with what's on the inside.

I remember firing some 'low recoil' .357, and, comparing it to about 10 other .357 ammos at the time, it was the heaviest recoiling of all. I guess Federal's
'low recoil' .357 was low recoil, provided you compared it to a .50 BMG...

Last, but not least:

Mas Ayoob has often said that a DA might try and use handloaded ammo to show you are some sort of nut, if used in self-defense, and, that it might be used in a powder residue test to establish distance inaccurately. That said, one might extend that argument to
'Self-Defense' ammunition.

For example: the Barnes brass bullets are excellent bullets, but, they are both expensive, and, not in common use. They are not mainstream, due to their cost. Contrast that with our local PD's 230 Grain Hydra Shocks. That's main stream, police use it, must be good, yes?

Ball has the advantage that it's VERY mainstream, though I don't think any LEO use it.

My head starts to hurt when I go down this road. My reaction really, is to find something I LIKE to shoot out of my gun, that's accurate,
and I think would work. I see no reason to spend 40 dollars a box, for 20 rounds of whiz bang SD ammo, when something else would work
nearly as well, at half the cost. In fact, I think this sort of search for the magic bullet IS evidence of sort of a fixation, and pre-meditation
with shooting people, and, I'm not much for engaging in it.

Most of my guns are loaded with something I KNOW works, or has a higher percentage chance of working for what I intend then some other ammo choice. I don't go searching for the perfect bullet, but, buy ammunition from certain well known ammunition makers that are consistent, Buffalobore, and Double Tap. This ammunition may, or may not be designed for SD. If I have to use a gun in self-defense, in my house, it's NOT going to be a common caliber SD load, nor is it going to be politically correct. It's most likely going to be what I shoot out of one of my guns designed for hunting,target shooting, or just what I've got laying around. It will be capable, by quite a bit, of doing what it's designed to do.
 
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I carry 230 gr Gold Dots in my Kimber Ultra Carry II and have shot several hundred of them through this pistol without any problems whatsoever. Have full confidence.
FT44
 
laktrash: The way the ammo market is right now, I carry 230gr ball in my Commander.

I'd just as soon carry Gold Dots or other nice defensive ammo, but I cannot seem to find any locally, and I would need 200 rounds to test in order to feel comfortable carrying it.

Until the market cools down, it's ball for me. I guess any bad guys attacking me will have to settle for .452 diameter holes instead of .90 diameter holes.
 
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