Commerce Clause?

alpineman

New member
I just made the mistake of flipping by Alito's confirmation hearings a while ago, and lucky me ... Feinstien was raving on about the Commerce Clause, and Congress' power to regulate commerce, and tying that into gun control. If I remember correctly, wasn't the Commerce Clause used to justify the Gun-Free Schools Act or something like that?

I'm not positive, but I think she trundled this same thing out during Roberts' confirmation.

The "individual v/s collective" 2nd Amendment argument seems to be the one which comes up most often. The fact that Feinstein is so fixated on the Commerce Clause is making me squirm.

Since there appear to be quite a few legal scholar-types who post here (and since I'm too lazy to find this out for myself...) To what degree has the Commerce Clause sucessfully been employed for gun-control moonbats like Feinstein? Is this their Constitutional argument of choice when it comes to gun control?
 
It was used in order to ban machine gun manufacture.

It was used for the gun free schools act, or whatever, but was later struck down as unconstitutional.

What I find interesting is that according to many democrats, "regulate" = "forbid".:barf:
 
If you do some research, you'll finnd the commerce clause has been used to destroy or curtail alot of your rights.E
 
Over the last century the U.S. gov. has used the commerce clause to forbid or regulate everything from weapons to medicine to hogfeed.Anything that can be traded has been considered avalible to regulation.Limited goverment my hairy pale @$$.
 
Commerce is the trading of something of value between two entities. That "something" may be goods, services, information, money, or anything else the two entities consider to have value. Commerce is the central mechanism from which capitalism and all other economic systems are derived. The process of transforming something into a commercial activity is called commercialization.

Economic activity is not synonymous with commerce. And this is where the Court has gone wrong, starting with Wickard v Filburn.

I would view a law to mean what it meant at the time it was written. Ah, but the meanings of words change, therefore the meaning of the law changes, some would argue.

Emphatically not. When the law is made, it is set into concrete. Whatever changes in the language may occur, the law itself does not change. It means what it meant at the time it was written.

With the current expansion of the meaning of the Commerce Clause (the capstone of Raich), there would never have been an amendment (the 18th) to prohibit the manufacture or consumption of alcohol. This is not only the difference between what the clause meant, but what the "new" meaning entails today.

But regardless of what I think, what does the author of the Constitution think?

For a like reason, I made no reference to the "power to regulate commerce among the several States." I always foresaw that difficulties might be started in relation to that power which could not be fully explained without recurring to views of it, which, however just, might give birth to specious though unsound objections. Being in the same terms with the power over foreign commerce, the same extent, if taken literally, would belong to it. Yet it is very certain that it grew out of the abuse of the power by the importing States in taxing the non-importing, and was intended as a negative and preventive provision against injustice among the States themselves, rather than as a power to be used for the positive purposes of the General Government, in which alone, however, the remedial power could be lodged. James Madison to Joseph C. Cabell, Letters 4:14--15, 13 Feb. 1829
If we don't like what the Constitution says, there is a tried and true method of changing it. What we don't do is to change the law by applying todays "newer and better" definitions of words to effect that change via the Judiciary.

Since the late 30's and early 40's, the Supreme Court has expanded this definition and therefore increased the Powers of the Legislature, all without the proper means of amendment.

The Constitution is a "living" Constitution only in as much as it is changed by amendment. This is why we need strict construction of what the document menas. Else the words within it have no real meaning other than a fleeting menaing as times and definitions change.

Now that I'm done ranting, we must remember that the NFA of 1934 was a Tax Law. At that time, the Commerce Cluase could not have been used. It wasn't until the Commerce Clause had been expanded out of all recognition, that it was the primary vehicle for the GCA of 1968 and most all of the regulations since 1968. None of this could have been done had we stuck to what the Commerce Clause was supposed to have meant.
 
I have a question on this.

Antipitas (or to whoever wants to answer this) :
I have a question.
Is taxation, or regulations requiring taxes, fees, etc. for administrative costs in order to regulate something, an "infringement" upon a right?
 
Is taxation, or regulations requiring taxes, fees, etc. for administrative costs in order to regulate something, an "infringement" upon a right?

Yes and no. As long as the tax is a burden on any one individual I would say it is an infringement. By that definition I would say that any tax attached to individual ownership or carrying (be it a fee, tax or other creation) if applied to the individual making the purchase or requesting the CCW is very clearly an infringment. If money is needed for the preservation and enaction of the 2A right it must come from a collective tax paid by ALL.

All of us theoretically pay for the expense of elections. The systems in place are paid by the government from the taxes of all the people. Even though only a minority of those who pay taxes vote we all pay for the rights of all to vote. The 2A is no differrent. It is a collective right and must be funded by the collective body of the nation. ALL people have the right, even if they choose not to use it, hence ALL people pay for it.
 
to Musketeer

Quote:
The 2A is no differrent. It is a collective right and must be funded by the collective body of the nation. ALL people have the right, even if they choose not to use it, hence ALL people pay for it.

Musketeer:, if you are saying it is a collective right, isn't that what gives argument to anti-s that an individual does not have the right to own a gun?

I believe it is an individual right, the same as free speech rights are individual, and also a collective right (as in political parties or groups voicing a collective opinion, or petitioning their representatives) and that the commerce clause would therefore not apply, since it is a right and cannot be taxed or regulated, since the 2nd says it "cannot be infringed" upon.

Or am I way off?
 
It was used for the gun free schools act, or whatever, but was later struck down as unconstitutional.
But it was immediately re-enacted by Congress with a new section explaining their specious "affecting interstate commerce" reasoning, and that new Gun-Free School Zone Act has not yet been overturned.
 
Musketeer:, if you are saying it is a collective right, isn't that what gives argument to anti-s that an individual does not have the right to own a gun?

My use of the term collective was to indicate that ALL Americans have this right.

I see the confusion. Every person has a 2A right as an individual. Every person has a right to vote.

Collectively the cost of that voting system must be paid for, meaning even those who do not vote must contribute something so that all may vote. Requiring payment to vote for an individual would violate that person's right to vote.

Collectively the cost of any system proposed for firearms must be paid. Requiring payment from an individual to exercise their 2A rights is a violation of that person's rights.

Requiring a person to pay for either the right to keep and bear arms or the right ot vote will prevent those of limited means from having the option of exercising those rights. Granted a person of limited means probably cannot afford a firearm either, but that is a private issue between buyer and seller. They may also always get it as a gift or inherit it. To attach a government fee upon that right is and illegal restirction.

Collectively ALL must pay so that ALL MAY exercise both their right to vote and right to keep and bear.
 
Misketter:
I agree totally with you on that sir.

Seems like every time we get away from the FF's intent, we screw up the country a little more.
 
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