Comments on Scout concept

J

Jake 98c/11b

New member
First off let me say that I am familiar with the scout concept, what I want to hear is your thoughts on the idea. I have seen some of you comment, bolth pro and con, on the scout concept but all have been without substance. By that I am saying that your comments express your opinion but fail to give your reasons. For those of you not familiar with the idea a scout rifle is a short (39" or less), light (about 6.5 lbs or less), rifle capable of taking medium game out to moderate ranges (300 yards). It has generally come to include a foreward mounted scope (as it is faster) and a three point sling mount for the Ching sling (for fast hasty support). I am not so much interested in your opinions, but your reasons for your opinions. I have toyed with the idea of building one but I havent decided yet if it is worth the effort.
 
I like the idea, to be honest. I don't, however, subscribe to the idea that one must spend $2k+ on a rifle that will, most probably, not outshoot a Savage, even given riflemen of equal caliber (no pun intended).
The idea is sound for a number of reasons. I personally cannot justify having a number of rifles in the house (budget and space) when a .308 or other .30 cal will do just fine, given the rifle is in good working order, is light enough for extended carry, and has a decent optics setup for general use within say, 300-500 meters. The manuf. are going to start making existing guns into so-called scout rifles, which is simply a ploy to get a piece of the pie....

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"Stop forest fires--ban matches."
 
I'd say you have the concept down. The Scout consists of a certain number of features brought together in one rifle. The sum is greater than the parts listed on paper. You just need to go out and shoot one. Then you can form your own opinions of the worth of the concept. I happen to like mine. It's a fine rifle and I like the way it handles and performs. What more can one say?
 
The Steyr Scout rifle is the perfect rifle for my use as a hunting guide. Most of the shooting I do is a snap shot at wounded game. I have to be able to find the animal in the scope in a split second and take the shot. The majority of the time it is a 180 grain up the tailpipe at ranges up to 200 yds. This is in the brush country of South Texas for whitetails. If I guided in more open country I might have a different opinion.
 
You will have to acknowledge that Jeff Cooper is the father of the scout rifle. If you have ever had more than a two minute conversation with him he will have told you that a rifle doesn't have to shoot better than 3 MOA. Being some one who has spent the last 50 years dedicated to making rifles shoot as well as possible I will say that if a rifle will not put the bullet within one caliber of point of aim at a 100 yards then it won't shoot well enough! The major point of a rifle is to be able to hit the object being shot at. The scout rifle is to be light weight. A few years ago we were building Titanium rifles that weighed 5 pounds. I will guarantee that if you swing down off a horse at 7000 feet and run around a cedar tree to get a shot at an elk as it is working it's way up the draw , that you not only won't be able to hit the elk but will have a hard time hitting the mountain! A rifle needs some mass to help dampen body impulses. The heavier the rifle the easier it is to shoot well. It has not been all that long ago that target rifles had the weight of the scope mounted to the barrel. In those days a 1 MOA target rifle shot well enough to win the Wimbledon. Then we found that it was detrimental to accuracy and now with receiver mounted scopes the long range rifles are shooting under ½ MOA. Now we come to the LER scopes. If you know anything about optics you know that eye relief is a compromise. The longer the eye relief the poorer the performance. That's why that most scopes are 2 1/2 to three and a few have as much as 4 inches eye relief and microscopes have a ¼ inch eye relief.. LER scopes were a trade off to be able to put scopes on pistols where optical performance was better than pistol accuracy. The evolution of the rifle has been more in performance than in aesthetic appeal. I will agree that a good many years ago the rifle had advanced to the point that it was functionally adequate and further change has been for eye appeal and performance.. I have no quarrel with those who are willing to give up performance to be in the crowd of Me To. I can readily understand that the average man can't hit a road sign at over 25 yards but to cease to strive for excellence in performance is to stop any further development of the rifle.
 
Thank you for your comments so far. I was first introduced to the scout concept by a friend who has a Burris scout scope on his Ruger 10/22. Upon seeing the little .22 in his kitchen, available to dispatch animals raiding his garden, I asked about the foreward mounted scope as it was the first of its kind I had seen. In the following week he and I went to the range for some shooting and at first I saw no advantage as we were just punching paper. When we switched to moving targets, rubber balls rolled along the ground and later thrown clays, I was made a believer in the scout scope. It was then that I first read Col. Cooper's Scout Concept, I have been interested in the Idea ever since. I like the idea of a light weight rifle, probably from my military experience. Two or three times a year I do a road march of ten miles with field gear with ruck and rifle (about 67 lbs) at the finish I engage 8 targets range 10-175 yards with one round each, reload, repeat, reload and do it one last time. I usually do it with my M1A because I figure the extra weight is good exercise, last time I used my Bushmaster M4 and my times for target engagment were substantially faster, my march time was a bit faster as well so I am sold on the lighter weight. I say this to explain my position, not to brag or anything like that. I have always thought that an understanding of the rationale behind someones position would help explain their viewpoint. Yes I am a National Guard soldier and I am one of the few who seems to put any effort into training on my own, I hope this will change now that the guard will be pulling 6 month tours in the former Yugoslavia. It could be a benifit to bolth the guard strocture and the country. Enough of my rant, as my final comment I would like to say that I really do not like the bolt handle on the Styer Scout, too small and flat, hard to manipulate fast for me. I only fired a box through it but that was my only strong impression of it that day. Thanks again to the gentleman who allowed me to fire his rifle that day, whoever he was.
 
I thought about it and I realized I haven't done the road march/live fire but once in the last 12 months. Time goes by faster than I realize these days. Felt the need to correct that, I hate to put out bad info.
 
My opinion on what a scout rifle is good for:

-A lightweight rifle, easily carried often.
-A rifle quick to deliver a single accurate and powerful hit to any reasonable distance.

Considering the above, I think it's a great concept for a hunting rifle.

Although the chapter in Cooper's "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" is titled something like, "The General Purpose Rifle", I don't think a GP rifle really exists. I think most all rifles do some roles better than others, but none do all of them well.

If I'm hunting, a Cooper Scout should do just fine. I shouldn't need much more than one shot, else I won't take the shot.

If I'm on a police tactical team doing a raid on a heavily barricaded gang, I sure don't want a Cooper Scout in my hands. I'd personally want some sort of AR-15 setup. The semi-auto carbine (using Cooper's definition of carbine) works much better for fighting hostiles in an urban environment at ranges under 25 yards.

So which is better? Depends what you want to do IMHO. To me it's fun having rifles for every occaision. :D

Edmund
 
A few years ago I sent a new Mini-30 to "Chief" to be converted to a "Mini-30 Scout" this is now one sweet rifle. Talk about hitting moving targets,its incredible, this rifle is a dream. If Ruger could have only made the Mini-30 in .308Win, IMHO this set-up would be the ultimate "Scout" rifle.

BTW, did I read many moons ago that the Mini-14 , Mini-30 action would not hold up to .308 NATO pressures, and thats why Ruger did not make the Mini-30 in .308?
 
I'll have to agree with antenna... its not the concept that's so bad.. its the IDEA that you've GOT to spend $2500 to get one of these rifles.

Cooper's rifle has been in development for years and the point/advantage of the scout is hitting moving targets accurately at short range and performing 'adequate" hits out to 300 yeards.

Well in my experience, a 300 yard shot is NOT impossible without a bipod or so called ching sling. A good old fashion GI leather sling works just fine.

REALLy close range shots are difficult with a scope, even if you are used to shooting with both your eyes open. This can be solved somewhat with training.

The idea of the "scout rifle" as a military arm went out with the dutch masden rifle.. bolt guns cannot compete with modern semiautomatic and automatic arms, except in a sniping role where a much heavier rifle would be employed. The point of sniping is to never get close to the enenmy.

The best "scout rifles" in the world are US m4 carbines with Holo sights and ak-74's with cobra sights. After all the development of the so called assault rifle is that rifle combat does not occur much beyond 300 yards, so WHY carry a bolt rifle for such use?????

a good 30-30, or similar open sighted rifle is far superior to a traditional scope in heavy brush at very close range (its also why you don't see scopes on dangerous game rifles) many such rifles are available or can be created/configured for far less than $2500.

BTW KUDOS to savage for the oversized bolt handle on their "scout", it looks cool AND functional. ( i never really understood the butterknife bolt handle, other than it looks nice and folds more flush to the rifle.. it does not seem faster.)

Mi-hi's rifle seems like a great "scout" gun, but really the emphasis on riflemanship should be the rifleman, NOT the rifle.

Dr.Rob

[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 13, 1999).]
 
Jak98c/11b, the closet thing I have shot to a Scout Rifle is the SA M1A Scout. I sighted it in for the owner and it shot MOA. I was impressed with the rifle and his optics..However.....

Not even I can give my opinion as well as Gale McMillan did in his previous reply...Thank's Gale....I agree, your 100% on the mark.

Best Regards....
"Train to Defend, Train to Survive, Train to Win"
 
I agree with Dr. Rob and Gale. Being a former Marine marksmanship instructor, I must hold true with the Corps' doctrine of it's the rifleman, not the rifle. The Corps is the only service still placing the emphasis on the individual rifleman to the extent that they do. The Corps is religeously fervent with training and instruction. By the time I became a marksmanship instructor, and thanks to the Corps, I could dismantle, reassemble, shoot and maintain almost every small arm in the Corps' arsenal, up to and including, Ma Deuce. No bragging meant, but I still consistently (on a good day) put 10 rounds into a pie pan @ 500 meters. It's all about training. Put a young person (or old) in a class or small group, train them well, and you've got decent rifleman and small arms people.

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"Stop forest fires--ban matches."
 
The Scout Rifle concept has much merit, but just how many of us can justify the expense of the Steyr?

And,while many rifles of divers configurations can be effective at 300 yards on an individual human or animal target, how many shooters can?Under field conditions of course....

IMO, there's little a $2500 Scout can do that,under field/brush conditions here in Md, a Model 94 in 30-30 can't. Average deer shot is around 60 yards, and I doubt there's many places where 300 yards is viable.

If you want one, fine. But those of us who cannot afford one, are hardly unarmed with either a 30-30 or a good bolt gun with proper scope setup.

One pet peeve, the high power scopes are not the answer to Eastern conditions.A 2-3.5X scope is plenty and gives fast acquisition and a big FOV....
 
It boils down to personal preference. We had a “varmint” match last weekend at the 200 yard range. 1 full size prairie dog, another with the bottom quarter covered up, a third that was half covered and the last target was a crow. We had 90 seconds to get off 5 rounds on one target from a prone position. Then a three-minute prep time and then another 90 seconds and 5 rounds. Repeated until 20 rounds were fired, 5 on each target.

I don’t own a varmint gun, so I used a Stoner SR-25 Match. Nice and heavy, bipod and decent optics. Just as Gale McMillan mentioned, the heavy weight was an asset. Stable as a rock and very accurate. When shooting for an X ring that’s only the size of a quarter, you don’t want a gun doing the “bob and weave” thing.

Now I also own a Scout Tactical that was no where near the $2,500 price tag of the Jeff Cooper package. It is an excellent hunting rifle and I was able to harvest a whitetail this season. The buck was spooked by someone across the road and was in a big hurry when it came from behind my blind and passed about 70 yards to my right. I was still able to get off a snap shot using the forward mounted 2.5 power Leupold scope. He folded up like someone hit him with a sledgehammer.

It goes back to what do you want a rifle to do. If I had to pick only one and leave the rest behind, it would probable be the Steyr Scout. (But I think I’d make my kids take turns carrying the Stoner! <grin> )

DblTap
 
I'm going to open myself to some heat here, but I seem to detect some envy from folks everytime this Steyr Scout post comes up. I even see it at the local gun store.
The other day I was in a gun shop and some of us were talking about the Steyr Scout it almost turned into a argument of the classes. Those that could afford one were more positive of the Steyr, and those that could not afford one were bashing it.
The fact is, the the Scout has pluses and it has minuses and it has a $2500 price tag. Some of us here could buy one from pocket change and not bat an eye, and some of us can just plain not afford one.
One of the guys bashing the scout the other day at the gun shop, on an other occasion when talking about hunting in Africa made the statement he would'nt go on a safari if it were free.....this guy could'nt afford to go to Colorado. Jealousy plain and simple. If he can't afford it.....then bash the guy who can.
I can't see paying $70,000 for a BMW, but if you have the jack, and thats what you want....go for it! BTW....could I borrow it this week-end?
 
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