Colt SAA 1871 Pics and info needed

[erob3]

Colt SAA 1873 Pics and info needed --MORE PICS ADDED NEAR BOTTOM

Hi all, A good friend of mine let me bring his Colt home. He is looking for info and approximate value on it. I have been able to determine from the serial number it was made in 1886, other than that I know little. Here are some pics. There are 2 sets of initials - the first is D.F.C which can barely be seen on the cylinder. The second is on the bottom of the wooden grips and they are RAC. I'm guessing since the last initial of both is C that stands for Colt and maybe is a family member that made that part but I really don't know. The serial number is stamped on each part and they do match. One other item, the front sight has a small groove or piece cut out of it and a small piece of ivory is installed, it can be seen on on picture. He believes that was done at the factory. The story is his Great Great Grandfather was issued this revolver and it has passed down thru the family. Thanks for any info.

 

[erob3]

More pics

3 more pics. One more thing, ever so lightly on top of the frame behind the trigger is the number 34 engraved or hand scratched into the metal. It is so light it can hardly be seen. It is somewhat fancy but not factory.

 

[igousigloo]

what surprised me was that in the first picture, the line in the cloth lined up perfectly with the ivory in the sight. I could not tell what you were talking about until the second set of pictures. Nice old Colt!

 

[Mike Irwin]

RAC is the stamp used by Rinaldo A. Carr, who was responsible for inspecting factory refurbished guns.

The DFC stands for David Clark, another military contract inspector. That was probably the original inspection mark.

Both men inspected guns used by the United States military, so chances are your friend's gun was originally a military gun, which the US under the cylinder on the left side also seems to indicate.

I don't know how military contract guns were normally marked, but the two inspector marks, unless faked, should indicate military usage, which always bumps up the price.

The ivory inserted into the front sight, though, is not a military touch, so the gun was apparently released into the civilian market at some point.

You may want to go to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Peacemaker#Military_use and read their section on the Peacemaker, specifically the military history section.

It may give you some more jumping off points for research.

It would appear, though, that your friend has a revolver with considerable value, well into 4 figures, possibly approaching 5.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agree that it is a US service revolver, Colt Single Action Army.

I think the barrel has been cut off, possibly at the time the front sight insert was placed. The pictures are not clear on it, but it looks like an odd length, neither the original 7.5" Cavalry spec nor the 5.5" "Artillery" modification of the Philippine Insurrection refurbishment programme.

I don't see why anybody would bother to fake military markings on a gun in such low condition.

 

[gak]

...Oh, in addition to what others have said--wrt the thread title, one line of Patent dates on the frame may (correctly) read 1871, but it is the 1873 model--not 1871. No such animal.

 

[erob3]

Thanks for the info. Jim, I just measured the barrel and it is in fact 5.5" and it does not appear to have been cut off. Hope that helps. Thanks for the correction on the model, I know nothing about these.

Just finished reading from website. So first question; Since Colt issued these in 3 standard barrel lengths, one of them being 5.5" - Would this Colt have been sold to the public after going thru refurbishment by R.A.C.? If so, I take the refurbishment could have been as extreme as replacing parts to a simple inspection. With this one, since it's a matching numbers revolver, it was an inspection. Does that sound plausible?

One last item - In reading about the "Model P" I remembered seeing a "P" on the bottom of the barrel near the cylinder. I have a microscope and I just checked for the acid etching, nothing. Of course this could have worn off thru the years. Would the "P" on the barrel indicate this to be a Frontier Six-Shooter model? Would they have issued those in the military?

 

[Jim March]

Whoa. I think that's very likely a $5,000+ gun right there. Maybe more. Only real mod is the front sight and that was done very well.

 

[mavracer]

You have a gun that started off as a 7 1/2" cavalry. It's most definatly a US military gun. I'd assume it was one of the cavalry guns that was referbished into the artillery length, but could have been done by whoever added the ivory too. You'd have to have it lettered to tell for sure. the only detraction I see that might affect collector value is the ivory on the fron sight, but since it's a period modification and concidering the gun's condition I doubt it'll hurt the value much your still looking at a probably a 4 to 5K+ gun that's a awesome piece of history. It would be worth more if you lettered it to show it was a artillary referb. If you could tie it to a family member in the service price goes way up too.

 

[Jim Watson]

Do the serial numbers match on all numbered parts (except the loading gate)?

If so, it is one of the first small batch of converted guns and probably worth more than the main body of refurbished and shortened revolvers that were taken down, barrel shortened, repaired, and reassembled without regard to numbers.

I know of no means by which these guns were "sold to the public". Lots of them went home in duffel bags.

A "Frontier Six-Shooter" is a .44-40 commercial model, no Army connection.

 

[erob3]

Okay, here are a couple of pics of the "P" and the end of the barrel. You can barely see the "P"s but there are 2 of them. Also, you can see the initials DFC underneath the lower "P". Tell me what you think.

Mavracer- when you say "lettered" do you mean getting confirmation from Colt? If that's the case I'm assuming you call them for that.

Jim- yes it's a numbers matching revolver. I can see the same serial number on all parts. Also, since you do not feel it's a Frontier Six Shooter what would the "P" mean on the barrel? That's one of the last remaining pieces to the puzzle.

 

[mavracer]

Yes you'lll have to contact Colt to get a historic letter it's like $200 to $300. If it's a numbers matching gun and is as issued to great grandpa it'd be well worth doing as it's a very valuable gun.
BTW does he know any off great grandpa's military record, did he spend any time in Cuba?

 

[Mike Irwin]

The P may simply be a proof mark. I don't know how Colt proofed their guns at this time, or how they marked them.



"I know of no means by which these guns were "sold to the public". Lots of them went home in duffel bags."

Some of these guns apparently went to state guard units in the late 1800s early 1900s. It's possible that it was surplussed out through the state.

It's also possible that, like the Smith & Wesson Schofields, the military simply surplussed them out to a wholesaler after they were considered to be obsolete.

Bannerman and Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham were known for purchasing large quantities of surplus military arms and selling them on the civilian market.

It's believed that Bannerman purchased Schofields and almost immediately turned many of them around to Wells Fargo.

 

[erob3]

Guys this is getting exciting. So I want to make certain I understand what I have read. The only way Rinaldo Carr would have stamped his initials on this pistol is if it went thru the barrel shortening process. With that said there were only 2000 of those done AND since this is an all numbers matching Colt it was one of the first to go thru that program. Does that sound right?

I do know he is insistent his Great Great Grandfather brought this with him out of the military.

 

[Mike Irwin]

As I understand it....

Yes,

It would appear that this is one of the original 2,000 that were shortened by Colt and then stamped by Carr.

In order to receive Carr's stamp, the guns had to go back to Colt.

Later guns were sent to Springfield armory for modification (barrel shortening) and that's where the parts were mixed.

 

[mavracer]

I do know he is insistent his Great Great Grandfather brought this with him out of the military.

Heck yes it's exciting. This thing could have charged up san juan hill with TR.

 

[erob3]

Unbelieveable!! So with that said here are a couple of other things and this should be wrapped up, other than contacting Colt. He was always told the Ivory was put on the front sight at the factory. Could this have been done by Rinaldo Carr, or someone else at the factory, when the barrel was cut down? Obviously a new front sight had to be put in place when that was done, so...... perhaps?

And while CLOSELY examing the revolver again last night I came across yet something else I had missed. Ever so faintly there is the number "34" hand scribed in the metal, on top of the grip part of the frame just behind the trigger. It was not done with an electric piece of equipment, it's too smooth. And the structure of the numbers is what I would say "professional" in appearance, not just done with a nail. It is done in fairly large numbers but was very lightly scribed. And it definitely was not done with a hammer or a roll stamp. So is it possible Rinaldo Carr, or someone else at the factory, put that there indicating it to be the 34th revolver refurbished? I will take a pic tonight when I get home and post it.

 

[Mike Irwin]

'Could this have been done by Rinaldo Carr, or someone else at the factory, when the barrel was cut down?'

Carr wouldn't have done it, he was a military acceptance inspector. He reviewed the quality of the company's work to determine if it was acceptable by the military.

A non-standard front sight alteration would NOT have been acceptable.

The ivory may have been added at the factory, but only an expert who knows Colt's handywork would know or sure.

And, as far as I know, military revolvers were never serialized by the order in which they were refurbished. If they had been, the number would have been stamped.

It's possible that someone at Colt did this for some reason, but I truly think that number was scratched on well after the gun was surplusse

 

[James K]

I have no doubt that the gun was originally made as part of the last Army contract and inspected by DFC (David F. Clark). It was later returned to Colt to have the barrel cut to 5 1/2 inches and then (re) inspected by Rinaldo A. Carr.

The sight has been altered after military service. If it were my gun, I would remove the ivory and have a top notch welder repair the front sight.

The P on the barrel is the barrel proof, same as the "P" on M1911A1 barrels. Colt, like most other makers, makes barrels separately from the frames and proves the barrels in a test jig before sending them to the assembly room. (They apparently marked only the military contract barrels, though.)

That way, if the barrel fails proof (a fancy way of saying "blows up"), it doesn't cost the time and money required for assembly and also it doesn't take a valuable frame along with it, as a revolver barrel failure almost always splits the frame.

The gun, even in poor shape, should bring around $6000; provable "Rough Rider" association would double that.

I strongly recommend a Colt letter; the cost is negligible compared to what could be gained.

Jim

 

[Mike Irwin]

I wouldn't be so quick to revert the front sight.

If there is anyway its post military provenance could be determined, that could add to the value. At worst it would only detract a small amount from the value because its a period alteration.