Colt revolvers - $ vs quality vs lawers

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marine

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Colt's revolvers - Given that Pythons and Anacondas are great revolvers, I was wondering if Colt made a revolver like the old models of Detective Special snub nose (and all the other permutations), with their crisp trigger pull and smooth actions with a premium price to compensate for production costs, if anybody would buy? Do lawyers control the # of trigger pull or does the insurance companies? And could Colt justify their profits on such a revolver to compensate for insurance claims? Why does trigger pull determine how revolver actions (or any other handgun) are manufactured?
Any Lawers out there?
Thanks
 
The reason Colt doesn't make the old Detective Special revolver is simply lack of sales volume.

To be profitable, you have to sell a LOT of guns, and the market just isn't there for a super-expensive snubby revolver.

The average gun buyer ISN'T a "gun nut" who's hobby is guns, it's a cop, home owner, or business man who usually knows little about guns, and really couldn't care less.

These majority buyers aren't going to spend $800.00 for a snubby revolver for defense use, when they could buy a Ruger, Taurus, or even S&W for much less.

Colt already makes THE premium American revolver, the Python. Sales are comparatively low.
The "average" revolver buyer buys a S&W if he's flush, or a Ruger or Taurus if he wants cheap.

The Python is, and always was a "niche" pistol, for people wanting the absolute BEST available.
The average Colt buyer "way back then" bought the Trooper or Official Police, not the premium Python.

The situation is even more so with small, snubby defense revolvers. The SIZE of market just isn't there to justify the effort and expense.
The "hot" items today are auto's, not revolvers, the police rarely use revolvers at all today, and certainly NOT extremely expensive ones.

As for lawyers and insurance companies, lawyers look at new products from a liability stand-point but they don't dictate what gets made.
They, have input, but no "go-no go" authority.

Insurance companies insure you, or not. They don't dictate what products you make.
If they don't think your COMPANY is a good risk, you find one that is. They don't get to pick and choose products.

No gun company, or likely any other company is "run" by lawyers or insurance people.
They're run by engineers and marketing execs.

This is a two-way street: Engineers come up with a new gun design, and the marketing people tell them if they think it will sell, OR the marketing people tell the engineers to development something they think will sell.

If the engineers guess wrong, you get a Colt All American 2000.
If the marketing people guess wrong, you get a S&W Sigma.
 
I think I got my magnum carry for under $400 brand new. It was one of the custom shop models too with the smooth light trigger pull, first 500 or so.
I never saw a Magnum Carry sit on a shelf for more than a week or two either. I think the public will buy when the price is right.
 
Very informative - I was always lead to believe that trigger pull (or squeeze) had something to do with a manufactures liability. And thats why some of the revolvers I own have such terrible let-off and action smoothness. As for sales volume - it must be the expense of manufacturing the small snubbys - but why? Aren't snubbys popular anymore? I suspect that there are more short barrel versions of revolvers bought than what you claim. - ie home owner - business man. And I suspect they buy because of cost as you suggest.
Given the Python - really great revolver - enhanced by all the options offered on this piece. Truely great engineering. The price reflects that. But what the hell is the difference in manufacturing a great piece like the python to producing a Colt "everyman's" special, and reducing the costs on finishing, etc and concentration on function. Lets face facts - function and appearance vs utility. Thats what the I believe sold the old Colts, kinda like the Fords way back then. Don't believe that Colt can't produce the kind of product they used to, at a price that consumers would pay. If liability and lawyers aren't involved, the technology now, with CNC manufacturing, and employees with input to the corporate structure, would make some great revolvers available to the general public.
Thanks for your input dfariswheel.
 
Probably THE greatest factor is Competition.
For Colt to sell a high-end Python-grade snubby, they have to overcome the market force of the cheaper, but as effective Ruger, Taurus, and S&W.

Again, MOST snubby buyers are buying PROTECTION, not an expensive work of art.

Next is Colt's current position.
Colt is struggling merely to survive.
They have to be VERY careful about what they make. Another All American 2000 fiasco, and they'll sink without a ripple.

The simple fact is, the vast majority of gun buyers looking in the case at the gun store and seeing $300.00 to $400.00 Rugers, Taurus's, and S&W's, aren't going to look long at a very similar gun costing $800.00.

In a healthier market, and a healthier Colt, it's possible a high-grade Detective Special could earn a niche in the market.
Unfortunately, Colt doesn't HAVE a good market, or financial position.
In order to take chances with an uncertain product, you have to have a healthy company with enough "fat", to be financially able to take chances on a failure.

Colt could make great use of modern CNC equipment, but there are two problems.
1. Colt can't AFFORD to buy the equipment now.
CNC costs BIG dollars, and is a major investment. Colt just can't do it now, and what equipment they have MUST be used to make their big seller, the 1911 pistols.
THAT'S where the money is coming from.

2. Revolvers are the LEAST able to benefit from CNC machinery. CNC machines are at their best on modern auto's with their fairly simple and fast to make flat surfaces.
Revolvers, ESPECIALLY the Colt's, are a machinist's night-mare of subtly curved and shaped surfaces.

Producing an "everyman's" snub is EXACTLY what Colt did with the "SF" framed revolvers like the DS-II and the Magnum Carry.
Sales were disappointing at best.
Again, the Colt, even in a greatly simplified "budget" model just couldn't compete with the still cheaper to produce Ruger, Taurus, and S&W.

Traditionally, Colt revolvers sold for a few dollars more.
That few dollars can be a killer in a market that looks for the "best buy".

So, we have a situation of:
Competition with revolvers mechanically as good, priced cheaper, if only by a few dollars.

A company fighting for it's very existence and having to concentrate on it's best money maker to the exclusion of all else.

A market in which the snub revolver is a fair seller, but not a great seller.
 
Colt should bring back it last snubnosed guns. With the proliferation of shall issue carry states S&W has made a small fortune on guns like the 642 and they aren't doing bad on the scandium guns either.

A lot of people just want a small easy to carry self defense gun. The 2 inch 38s fit the bill nicely. Hell the majority of these folks are going to load 5 or 6 depending on the gun and throw it in their pocket or a night stand.

I know Colt makes its money on 1911s but they are really missing the boat on the self defense market.

As far as lawyers go, as long as the product is safe for its intended use they don't care. Lawyers are nothing more that a BS excuse companies use for selling guns with lousy trigger pull rather than spend the time and money to give you a good trigger pull.

If liability issues were the real reason for bad trigger pulls, companies like S&W wouldn't have a performance center where you can send your gun for a factory trigger job. Nothing legal or lawyer related here, you can have a great trigger but you have to pay. Additionally, a heavy bad trigger is more likely to cause you to miss and thereby cause potential liablity.
 
Maybe it is a people problem

I thought alot of handwork went into the Colt actions like the D frame snubbies as compared to some of their more modern revs. With all their problems, maybe they no longer have a pool of skilled workers for the labor intensive type actions, or they are retired, and what ever is left is busy in the custom areas doing Pythons and cowboy guns. I don't think that a CNC can do the handwork in those old guns! They would have to come up with new action maybe to allow mass production of a mass market snub that could be put together as easy as a Ruger. Guess they can't afford it, according to other posts. So just go ahead and get a mint used one, and be satisfied that the value goes up as the pool of available guns shrinks. And take care of it. Unless you want to get a less than perfect finish good gun, for a good price, and shoot the dickens out of it!
 
The Colt Detective Special used the same basic lockwork as the Python & Official police. It was not as durable as the comparable S&W designs, which is one reason why those guns are no longer made, with the exception of the Pythons, which were dropped for a while & are part of the revolver lineup that Colt is trying to bring back.
Colt switched to more modern designs in their Troopers & other derivations with coil mainsprings & stronger internals like the Anacondas.
The Python & Peacemaker are offered in relatively limited numbers to appeal to the collectors, high-end admirers, and cowboy action shooters. Colt actually (according to an acquaintance hired as a consultant for them reporting directly to the General) doesn't make all that much off the 1911s, either. Colt basically gave the 1911 market away quite a while back to Kimber & others who were willing to give the market what it wanted when Colt wasn't. About three years ago the company invested five million dollars in new CNC equipment, but that was to keep up with worldwide military orders for the M16 & variations. That's where Colt has been making its money, and that's what's allowed the company to bring back the Python & the Anaconda.
I'd like to see the Dick Special return, I've got two of them & carried one off-duty for several years. I've also got a Python, and it's a great gun, but I don't expect it to hold up like a Smith L-Frame over the long haul with full-bore loads, and the Smith costs quite a bit less.
The loss of skilled workmen is not exclusive to Colt, but it is a factor also.
Denis
 
The bottom line is, Colt simply cannot afford to try to market a pistol that wasn't selling to start with.

The "SF" framed guns like the DS-II and the Magnum Carry simply were NOT selling.

It would be suicide to try to market something that was loosing money to start with.
Only a fool tries to re-introduce a product that the market has rejected, and make no mistake, for all it good points the "SF" framed Colt's WERE a market failure.

This is understandable. In the past, Colt often took absolute dead aim....and emptied their own gun into their feet.

Before the bankruptcy, Colt was DESPERATE for operating cash.
What they did was announce plans to import a high-end Italian over and under shotgun!!!!

So while the company bled to death, Colt spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on trips to Italy, marketing studies, and planning for the new shotgun.

The fact that the fairly small market for premium over and under shotguns was totally covered by other companies didn't stop them until marketing studies finally brought them to their senses and the project was canceled.

What Colt desperately needed was a big selling money maker not a small profit niche market obscurity.

We don't need to mention the All American 2000 fiasco, or the American Eagle Double Action that people in droves DIDN'T buy.

In Colt's current condition, reality demands to be observed, and for the foreseeable future, a snubby Colt is NOT in the cards, unfortunately.
 
The DS-II and Magnum Carry exemplify, more than anything else, why Colt nearly went under.

Colt stuck with the archaic and expensive-to-produce Detective Special long past the point of sanity, then tooled up to produce a "more modern version" that focussed on ease of manufacture, and then charged the same amount of money for it. Really bright. Of the five or six that I got really good looks at before production ceased, three were total lemons. (One had the barrel in crooked.)

The Magnum Carry was a beautiful attempt to show up late to a crowded party. How many years had Ruger, Taurus, and S&W been selling pocket .357's like hotcakes before Colt figured that it might be a profitable market niche? Then they announced it, with much hoopla, and... took... their... sweet... time... getting... it... to... the... retail... market.

Colt may eventually be able to get back into the "normal" revolver business, but they'll need to be in a much stronger financial position than they are now, and it'll take a good ad campaign.
 
Careful fellas, gotta differentiate between facts and opinions.

•From what I know from talking to wholesalers and retailers the Magnum Carry line sold very well. It was wholesaled at a price that made it competitive with the Smith J frames. In fact, the one I bought cost $10 less than a .357 J frame....
• When I was SELLING firearms, I can attest that the wholesale price of the King Cobra and the SF revolver was roughly the same as the Smith L frame an J frame from most of the bigger jobbers (Like RSR in Florida). In fact, some of the distributers had "specials" on the Colts that made them easier to stock than the Smiths. Now, did some retailers stiff Colt buyers thinking that hardcore Colt shills would pay out more for the pony? Yes, but not all of them did.

• The reason the SF and Magnum Carry revolvers cost less than the Dick specials of old is because the parts were indeed made on CNC equipment. Thats why much of Smith and Wessons revolver line is made with CNC equipment too. The CNC parts have tighter tolerances than the hand fitted parts of yore, a lot of the time and it is much cheaper to manufacture the guns that way and just assemble them instead of hand fit them.
Colt allready has CNC machinery set up for the small frame revolver lines. They just chose to stop focusing on pocket wheelies at a time when the popularity of pocket wheelies skyrocketed.

• When you look for logic to explain why the Colt company did this, that or the other, you are really looking in the wrong direction. Lots of times, Colt has made stupid business decisions for no other reason than stupidity.

• My local dentist has a CNC machine that is used to make caps for teeth in the new way. If he can afford it, Colt can. Autos appear simple to the untrained non-gunsmiths eye. But the reality is that they are a lot more difficult to machine, which is why they tend to cost more than the typical wheelgun. The reason you don't see many Lugers today, is because the Luger required over a hundred more machining options than a 1911. (Elmer Keith pointed that out in his writings once). The current run of Python Elites use CNC parts from what I have heard.
• Right now, Smith and Taurus probably sell more snub nosed revolvers than full size auto pistols. The reason? CCW permits. For years Taurus made a killing off their J frame copies while Colt did not even bother to produce a small pocket revolver. Revolver sales continue to climb, thanks in large part to CCW. Notice how many new versions of old wheelies Smith has been coming out with? Ditto with Taurus. As you notice less police departments purchasing Smith autos, notice that the number of revolvers smith sells increasing dramatically.
Basically, it has not been all that long since Smith announced it sold more autos than revolvers.....However, when you remove police contract sales from that equation, what you find is that Civillians have always purchased more revolvers than autos from Smith.
CCW and new gun buyers are more likely to purchase a wheelie these days for a couple of reasons. Number one, they are simpler and less exensive. Number two, if you are going to actually CARRY the gun, Berettas ,Desert Eagles and full size .45s look cool in detective films, but the average person really doesn't want to put up with whatyou have to do to conceal a full size service pistol.


>>>Colt could make great use of modern CNC equipment, but there are two problems.
1. Colt can't AFFORD to buy the equipment now.
CNC costs BIG dollars, and is a major investment. Colt just can't do it now, and what equipment they have MUST be used to make their big seller, the 1911 pistols.
THAT'S where the money is coming from.

2. Revolvers are the LEAST able to benefit from CNC machinery. CNC machines are at their best on modern auto's with their fairly simple and fast to make flat surfaces.
Revolvers, ESPECIALLY the Colt's, are a machinist's night-mare of subtly curved and shaped surfaces.

Producing an "everyman's" snub is EXACTLY what Colt did with the "SF" framed revolvers like the DS-II and the Magnum Carry.
Sales were disappointing at best.
Again, the Colt, even in a greatly simplified "budget" model just couldn't compete with the still cheaper to produce Ruger, Taurus, and S&W.

Traditionally, Colt revolvers sold for a few dollars more.
That few dollars can be a killer in a market that looks for the "best buy".

So, we have a situation of:
Competition with revolvers mechanically as good, priced cheaper, if only by a few dollars.

A company fighting for it's very existence and having to concentrate on it's best money maker to the exclusion of all else.

A market in which the snub revolver is a fair seller, but not a great seller.

* <<<<
 
A lot of this depends on WHERE you're at.

Where I live in the Mid-West, wholesalers and retailers nearly couldn't give the SF-IV and the DS-II away.

The Magnum Carry did sell better, but by that time, it was too late.

When Colt announced the discontinuance of many of their guns, and the fact that they would no longer accept INDIVIDUAL customers orders, the available Colt's of all models flew off the shelves.

Colt DIDN'T say they were going to stop selling guns to the commercial market, just that they would no longer allow people to order direct from the factory.

People HEARD "No more commercial sales", and to this day, some people think Colt doesn't sell guns to "civilians".

The problem was, all those sales were too little, too late.

Bottom line: Colt has already said that the "SF" series of snub revolvers are dead, and will not be re-introduced.

Although this could change, Colt is adamant that it won't.
 
warhammer357,

Careful fellas, gotta differentiate between facts and opinions.
Click to expand...

True 'dat. Need to differentiate between fact and opinion. For instance...

From what I know from talking to wholesalers and retailers the Magnum Carry line sold very well. It was wholesaled at a price that made it competitive with the Smith J frames. In fact, the one I bought cost $10 less than a .357 J frame....
Click to expand...

It sure did, because most of them that reached the public came from closeout houses like CDNN who had bought them for pennies on the dollar from an ailing Colt already reeling from the Double Beagle and All American 2k flops.

When I was SELLING firearms,
Click to expand...

Been doin' it for over a decade, and I try to stay up on my career, as you no doubt do with yours. I promise I'll refrain from telling you how things are in the graphic arts business, okay? :)
 
Give me a break

Colt can't afford CNC - So they are making 1911s anyways? How long will their 1911 product last?
Pop the side panel(s) on the old Colts. The guts are not something that Computer mfg couldn't replicate. Including the frame and all else. If Colt thinks that hand-tooling is the way to go, then they have a problem with mgmt and sales, and they will definitely reduce their profitibility.
If they do have CNC as others have suggested, then a small Colt snubby (or similiar) w/no frills, could and would sell. Give it the blueing and steel frame, and a trigger pull that a customer wouldn't want to send back to get aftermarket upgrades. And put the dancing horses on the grips. Bet it would sell big time.
Colt has more than all other mfg - ie the name is Colt, and you want to buy the best.
Some time ago I read an article on guns relating to the Calif - Mexico border. It had to do with guns bought and sold, by police and drug smugglers. If it wasn't a Colt, it wasn't a gun. Did Colt loose that reputation? I don't think so, for now.
Lawyers - I didn't want loose the objective of this post. I still feel that Lawyers determine what the action and trigger pull are - heck, their warnings are all over the barrel and the case you get your firearm in.
 
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Yes, but

I suppose they could make the innards of a Python on CNC, maybe they do. But can they get the famous Python trigger pull without any hand fitting? I bought the Kuhnhausen Colt book, and the insides of the colt look alot more
tricky to me compared to a Smith. I can smooth out a Smith trigger pull to a large extent, with aftermarket springs, polishing, etc.(No dinken' with sear angles! For PROS!) Have not tackled a Colt yet. No aftermarket tuning parts for most models, except coil springs and 1911. Don't think I will try it. Might trash a part somehow and good luck getting a replacement. Then fitting it.
I had a DS II once. About a week. Took it back cause the barrel was rusty inside from factory. Looked dull and frosted and rough after I got the rust out. Outsides was fine. Not the first rusty barrel I got from a factory new Colt.
 
Anybody want to work for Colt?

I have a dream. That Colt could produce a small revolver with a great action and trigger pull, and no frills - just your basic blueing, a "like glass" trigger", and a price under or close to $500, for a steel frame with the dancing Colts on the grip. Lots of comments re Colts mgmt and sales, and what went wrong. I'll print out this string. And I'll send it to Colt Mgmt. We can give our opinions to ourselves. But maybe Colt would like to hear from us.
If you have any other (other than those posted) opinions on Colt and their products, and how they might turn around their corporate profits via new product/sales/mgmt or re-structuring - just post here. I will send this string to Colt Corporation Hqs. I will ask for a reply. And I will post any reply on this string, all feedback from Colt. I'll cut it off at end of month August, and print it all out, and send it in. And I will post any feedback from Colt. Should be interesting.
thanks
 
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marine,

I have a dream. That Colt could produce a small revolver with a great action and trigger pull, and no frills - just your basic blueing, a "like glass" trigger",
Click to expand...

This is not voodoo: The old Colt lockwork (as exemplified in the Pythons and the D-frames) was not designed with mass production and machine manufacture in mind. It is hand-fitting-intensive. Any gunsmith can tell you this. Believe what you want, but this is why this lockwork was dumped in favor of the simplified lockwork in the DS-II/SF-IV guns. This decision was not made by lawyers or bean-counters, but by you, me, and a bazillion other customers who weren't willing to pay Korth prices for an S&W trigger pull; it's as simple as that...
 
Pop the side plate and look inside. Then realize that everything isn't as easy as it looks. It takes hand fitting to make a single spring perform multiple functions correctly and in a timed sequence. Timing is also more critical in a Colt.
Be sure you know what you are looking at when you pop that side plate. The number one reason why every gunsmith will not work on the old Colt action is because it's not just a simple swap of parts. Just about everything has to be fitted.
 
My gunsmith is one of the few I'd trust to do it, and he tells me an action tune up on that Colt action type will run double what a corresponding S&W action job would cost me, if that tells you anything.
Even removing the parts can mess things up if you don't know what you're doing, such as taking the V mainspring out with a pair of pliers and overcompressing it.
They're neat guns, but I'm dreading the bill when he gets done rebuilding a very sick 1950s Official Police for me, and it won't be fired on a regular basis.
Denis
 
Yep,
at a time when Snubby Revolver sales are up and going through the roof thanks to CCW laws.
Over the past few months I have had several non gun people tell me they are considering purchasing this, that or the other Smith or Taurus or Ruger snubby.
And of course the Rocket Scientists at Colt have taken themselves out of th race.
Colt could produce (and did) a snubby using modern machine processes that would be competitive with Smith...They just chose not to. In other words, Colt Management shoots itself in the foot again.

>>Bottom line: Colt has already said that the "SF" series of snub revolvers are dead, and will not be re-introduced.

Although this could change, Colt is adamant that it won't.<<<

*
 
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