COLT New Service 455 ELEY

O

olivestab

Inactive
hello,
I am still green to the firearm world after owning my first handgun (passed down by the family) just over 2 months ago.
however Ownership and various military related things have been part of my lifestyle since childhood,
and i am always eager to learn new things.

I recently obtained a New Service 455 ELEY revolver pistol.
At first i tried to do some research online about where its from, and all i could uncover was that it was used in WW1 and for Boarder Patrol.
(i don't even know if this is correct)

There are some strange stamps on the gun, and i have always wondered what they mean,
I read that they where certain stamps issued by different armies as firearms circulate through the military, but thats about all i know.

Also, i watched a video of someone using the gun, its a 45btw, and he was very satisfied with the performance of the 100yo gun.
However one thing he said struck me, he mentioned that it only fires "45 COLT".
Isn't "45 COLT" just a brand?? I figure i could purchase any normal 45ammo.

reason why I'm so concerned is because i would hate to dish out the extra bucks just because of the brand name.
Idk about you guys, but Ammunition sold at walmarts is a STEAL! and i would hate to pass up this luxury if this gun cannot fire normal 45 ammunition.


one last thing, my grandmother in law told me that she tried to sell the gun back (30 some odd years ago)
and they told her they couldn't do anything with it, so she kept it in her house for defense.

Im wondering why they would say that? i think the gun is only worth like 50-100$ -would that be the reason?


anyways, if someone could confirm my 45 ammo question, and possibly let me know what these marking mean, i would be very grateful.

here is the gun at full view:
_APO4041.jpg


here is the gun with cylinder facing out. (if anyone notices anything wrong please inform me)
_APO4043.jpg


Another view of cylinder for diagnostic purposes: (courtesy of my wife helping to hold it for me!)
_APO4046.jpg


View of the guns service name:
_APO4038.jpg


View of the guns markings (what to they mean)
_APO4037.jpg
 
Those are British proof marks, some of them will show up here:
http://proofmarks.tripod.com/englishproofs.html
Someone here may be able to decode some of the more obscure markings.
I can find no reference to .455 Eley in Cartridges of the World, it does however list .455 Colt, .455 Mk I, .455 Mk II and .455 Webley, there is also a .476 Eley which is sometimes referred to as the .455/.476 due to it's use of the same case and bullet as the .455 MK I. According to Cartridges of the World all of those rounds are interchangeable, maybe the .455 Eley is of the same ilk. Hopefully someone with a whole lot more experience with these revolvers will chime in. I would have to guess that when your grandmother in law tried to sell it they wanted nothing to due with it due to lack of available ammo.

Stu
 
What you have a New Service that was sold to the British government during WW1. The proofmarks were applied by the British both when it was accepted for service with the army and when it was released for sale on the civilian market.

.45 Colt is indeed a cartridge designation (sometimes erroneously called the .45 long Colt). It was first chambered in the Model 1873 Single Action Army revolver adopted by the US army in 1873. At the same time Smith and Wesson had a .45 caliber revolver chambered for a similar, but shorter, round. Hence the reason it was designated a Colt round.

I have a New Service that is chambered in .45 Colt and it is so marked on the barrel.

IMG0836-X2.jpg
 
thank you for your reply.
How can i tell if the cylinder was modded for 45 ACP?
I see many posts where these new service have been re-modified, I'm no gunsmith so i couldn't tell.

My grandfather in-law (whom i never met and passed away 4years ago)
was a skilled gunsmith.
Apparently do to old age he lost his smarts and ended up having to sell his inventory and shop.
This revolver that i own was his choice out of his inventory that he decided to keep.

The gun is in working condition, and i am going to have it prepared for use,
but i have read too many sources claiming the the New Service Revolvers can fire 45 ACP or Cannot fire 45 ACP ect,
and i am hoping that by all the markings on the gun, someone could tell if it has been modified.

Lastly, is there a website that has a legend of all military markings that i can cross reference with the ones on my revolver?

Thank you very much for your time and help.
 
That gun will not take .45 ACP rounds. They do not have a rim on them. Revolvers that were made to take .45 ACP rounds were made by Smith & Wesson they had a recess cut into the cylinder to take moon clips that held the rounds so that the firing pin would not drive them into cylinder. They were the Model 1917 revolvers. Also known as the Victory revolver.

Your gun is either .45 Colt (AKA .45 Long Colt) it is a specific round not a brand. Or .455 Webley which was a British service round in their revolvers for quite a while. Since it is a WWI era gun, that more than likely was a British issue. I will lay my money on the fact that it is .455 Webley. Since the British did receive 60 thousand of them from Colt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley
 
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thank you very much for your help.
Unfortunately ill have to shop for that specific ammunition :(

I was hoping i could just use 45 ACP since its so available.
 
I don't think you can, your cylinder appears not to have been cut as required to shoot .45 ACP, .45 Auto Rim, or .45 (Long) Colt.
I believe it is still a .455 Eley which is how Colt marked their revolvers for the .455 Webley. Webley was a major British gun company in those days and Colt did not want to put a competitor's name on their gun. Eley is a British ammunition company, still making first class .22s.

Although obsolete, ammunition can still be found.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/23601
Sorry it is not sold at CheapMart.

There were several different versions of .455, but the Mk II was the last and will work in all the revolvers except the very early black powder guns.
 
You can have the cylinder cut for 45 acp using moon clips or 45AR for around $100.

You can still buy ammo for it. Midway sells Fiocchi 455 Webley MK II with a 262 grain bullet. Parts # 167-595.

I would probably buy Fiocchi ammo, and save the brass to reload.

I have no idea what the gun is worth, but it is more than $50 - $100. Probably closer to $250 to $300 range, and possibly more.

In the American Military versions of the Colt New Service, the Model of 1909 was chambered in 45 Colt. The Model of 1917 was chambered in 45acp. Apparently the cylinders were updated so that they could fire 45acp without moon clips at some point. The later version would not eject without the moon clips and the empty shell cases had to be poked out with some object like a pencil. The original cylinder configuration allowed shells without moon clips to drop into the chambers to deeply to fire without the moonclips to head space on.

Bob
 
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Cutting the cylinder now would be a bad idea.
Spend a hundred dollars and reduce the resale value of the gun by half.
Set it up to shoot common ammunition... but not very well, the barrel and cylinder throat of a .455 is a good deal oversize for .45ACP.

The usual thing would be to buy a box or two of .455, shoot the gun a little just to say you had, and move on to something more manageable.
 
Do NOT cut the cylinder. .455 Eley (aka .455 Webley) is available from Fiocchi and can be reloaded. .45 Colt cannot be used without altering the gun because of the chamber length and the rim thickness.

Here are some of the meanings of your markings, left to right.

A British commercial proof mark stamped over the military proof; the crossed pennants are part of the military proof. "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" was required on non-English guns up to 1952, to warn the English buyer against "inferior" foreign products (all foreign products would, naturally, be inferior).

The broad arrow representing British government property, with a second arrow point to point, indicating that the gun was legally sold by the government.

The Colt factory proof mark, the letters "VP" meaning "Verified Proof."

Some marking oblilterated with a punch; I have no idea what it was.

The crossed scepters and letters are part of the Birmingham commercial proof.

The colt is the Colt trademark; it is a factory marking.

The broad arrow and other marks are British military property mark and proof marks.

The BP and BV represent Birmingham proof and Birmingham view marks respectively. The BP means the gun was proved, the BV that it was then checked to see if any defects were found.

That gun has been proven, tested, and stamped every which way possible. It is a billboard of Anglo-American firearms history.

Jim
 
First of all don't modify the revolver. Leave it like it is.

Second of all it looks to be in pretty good shape considering it's age. You're very lucky.

Third in addition to Fiochi Hornady will produce a batch of 455 Webley now and again. Hornady's brass is better quality and Cabelas sells it. It's expensive, but it's good ammo.

Fourth if you really want some answers go to this Colt forum Post the same photos and you will get a deluge of responses. Trust me. I belong to the forum and the members are very helpful. Some of the same folks are here on TFL as well, but evidently they haven't seen your post. HEre is the link.

http://www.coltforum.com/index.php
 
If you want to see how much New Services in .455 are going for these days, check out Auction Arms and Gun Broker, focusing on guns that have sold and which are in roughly similar condition.
 
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR RESPONSES.
you guys have been extremely helpful.


After a few reads i decided
"all right then my gun cannot fire 45 ACP, it takes LONG COLT"
I woke up today and read up on the forum to realize that my gun cannot take LONG COLT at all, only .455. :mad: (I'm ok with that though)

Weather or not the gun is worth 50 or 1000, it was passed down to me in the family, i wouldn't want to sell this beauty, besides my wife would shoot me with it before i tried lol!

As far as the alterations go:
1. i dont trust modifications on "ANYTHING" I've learned this the hard way with cars, technology, all sorts. Basic is better, use it the way its supposed to be use is my personal motto, and life will be light and easy.

2. i love culture, i will preserve history if it is in my power to do so, and in this case, this is my revolver, and i will not alter or modify any parts.


As for my use of the gun:
I have not fired this gun yet, but i want to just to make sure it works.
Once i establish this, i want a nice backup stock of some .455, and i want it stored away, never to come out unless **** hits and i can pack some heat.

Im a survivalists, and even though i wouldn't rely on this revolver, i want it ready.
I appreciate the help with this revolver, i hope i can purchase some .455 and fire it through to make sure everything is checked and maintained, you guys helped me allot, if it weren't for this thread i might have just fired a normal 45 round at the range!
 
Just a suggestion for "long down the road" purposes- create a tag or note to be stored with the handgun with all the info you've discovered on it. Someday your kids or grandkids will appreciate it. Also, of a safety note- advise your decendants not to attempt to alter the weapon to fire .45ACP, .45GAP, or whatever .45 caliber round happens to be popular 100yrs from now. I recall reading that the .455Mk? revolver rounds had a MUCH lower working chamber pressure than the .45ACP.

Heck, create a tag for all your firearms that may be passed down someday.
 
The New Service was Colt's pre-WWII large frame double action revolver and was made in a variety of cartridges including .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .38-40, .44-40, .44 Special, .455 Eley/.455 Webley, and .45 Long Colt. While not technically called a "New Service", some were also made to fire .45 ACP with half-moon clips for the U.S. armed forces during WWI and dubbed the Model 1917 (S&W also made their N-Frame hand-ejector second model in a similar configuration concurrently and it was also dubbed Model 1917).

Most of the revolvers that Colt made in .455 Eley were sold to the British or Canadian governments as those nations could not make enough of their own revolvers during the great war. Because .455 Webley was the standard-issue service cartridge of British Commonwealth nations (used unsurprisingly in the Webley Mk. I-VI revolvers as well as others such as Trantier, Pryse, and Adams) from the late 1880's to the 1930's (and was still used on a limited basis through WWII), both Colt and S&W made revolvers in those cartridge for sale to "The Empire".

.455 Eley is simply another name for the .455 Webley Mk. II cartridge. A slightly different cartridge, .455 Colt, is simply another name for the older .455 Webley Mk. I cartridge which was slightly longer than the Mk. II and loaded with black powder rather than smokeless.

Factory .455 Webley Mk. II ammunition is produced by both Fiocchi and Hornady though it is quite expensive. While considered quite adequate in its day, the ballistics of the .455 Webley cartridge are somewhat pedestrian by today's standards propelling a 262gr LRN bullet at a rather sedate 600-650fps.

If you reload, Remington's 250gr LRN bullet is an excellent choice. Not only is it reasonably close to the original weight, but it's also of the proper .455" diameter and has a concave base that will obturate to grip the rifling tightly and yield good accuracy. To top it all off, they're quite affordable as Midway sells them in boxes of 100 for $16.29, 500 for $56.99, and 1,000 for $96.99.

If you want a similar gun that can fire .45 ACP ammunition, you might want to look for a Colt M1917. In my experience, the 1917 is actually the most affordable of the New Service variants because they are the most common (they can fairly commonly be found for $600-800 while most other variants run $900 to several thousand for particularly rare variants such as the U.S. Service Model 1909).
 
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i have a new service from the early 30's in .45 Colt. the thing shoots like a cadillac. i've never seen those marking though. pretty neat and i'd assume a bit rare
 
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