Colt Detective Special Timing

J

Jaywalker

New member
I never paid much attention to Colt's D-frames when they were available, but now I'm thinking I have to have one - a Detective special (preferably shrouded, three-inch), or possibly a Cobra or an Agent. The trouble is I recall reading one place 30 years ago that the Colt was more likely to go out of time than a Smith.

So, three questions:

1. How can I tell if it's not timed properly?

2. How common is out of timing, as in "All of them need timing occasionally," to "One in a thousand need some work?"

3. Is a timing issue something most gunsmiths can handle, or does this require a specialist or the factory?

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
There has long been a school of thought that if a Colt cylinder is retarded in any way, like clamping a pipe wrench on it, it will not "carry up", resulting in a great disaster in which whole counties will be wiped out. I suspect that some of this silliness originated with folks who, for a hefty fee, would "properly time" the gun.

In fact the Colt mechanism will rarely lock up if the gun is cocked slowly in single action UNTIL the trigger is pulled. When the trigger is pulled, the cylinder will carry up and lock before the hammer falls and the firing pin contacts the primer.

So to see if a Colt is "in time", simply fire it normally. If the firing pin strikes are centered in the primer, there is no problem and nothing to worry about.

Today, gunsmiths who will/can work on those guns are thin on the ground. Even Colt won't work on some of the older ones, as parts are no longer available or being made and their skilled workers are long gone.

Jim
 
Today, gunsmiths who will/can work on those guns are thin on the ground. Even Colt won't work on some of the older ones, as parts are no longer available or being made and their skilled workers are long gone.
Click to expand...

This is what makes buying a Colt something to seriously think about.

Cock the hammer all the way back, and with the trigger pull all the way back, there should be ZERO play in the cylinder - if it moves even the slightest bit, pass that one by
 
That "if it moves the slightest bit" is another needless concern. Some slight cylinder movement is no problem, though it is more common in S&W's than in Colts. One drawback of the Colt system is that in a worn gun, once the second level of the hand pushes against the ratchet tooth, it can actually force the chamber OUT of alignment with the barrel. It takes a lot of wear, but I have seen it happen.

Jim
 
Having owned older Colt DAs & discussed them with Cunningham, Cylinder & Slide, and my longtime Colt-certified gunsmith, among others, I'll say that the old V-Spring action IS designed to drop the cylinder stop into the cylinder notch BEFORE the hammer reaches full cock when pulled back slowly.

If it doesn't, it's not timed correctly. It'll still function, but it's not timed correctly.

Also, WITH the TRIGGER pulled fully to the rear and the HAMMER down, there should be zero movement of the cylinder in any direction. That includes rotational and fore & aft.
If there is any movement with the trigger held fully back, it's not set up correctly. Period.
It'll still function, but it's not "right".

The action is designed to absolutely lock that cylinder in place at the moment of ignition.

Once either condition develops, it's an indicator that service is needed. It'll only get worse (typically the hand is shortening), and it's recommended that you get it corrected before it goes any further.

Many say "As long as it functions, I don't care", but it's the equivalent of saying "As long as my car still runs, I see no need to change the oil. Yeah, it's getting pretty black & sluggish, but the car still moves, so what the hey!".
Or, "My tire's bald, but it still holds air, so why worry about it?'
Or, "My temp gauge is pegged & steam's coming out from under the hood, but I'm still in motion, so why pull over now?"
Sooner or later, it'll catch up to you. :)

Those Colts were designed to meet certain specs, and the timing was important.

Very few gunsmiths today are capable of competently working on those guns, best is Colt for speed, if they still can. They're running out of parts & haven't ordered any new ones for quite a while.
The guns are obsolete & Colt can't be expected to service them forever.
Denis
 
Well, since I have seen many Colts brand new from the factory that were not "right" by DPris's standards, I guess you don't have to even buy it. Unless the factory didn't get it "right", I have to assume they went bad in the box while being shipped.

Jim
 
Jim,

That's a reasonable interpretation of what I said, so I'm just not explaining myself properly. Let me try again.

I'm interested in searching out used models of, say, a 1973 Detective Special. I have an idea now how to evaluate the current state of its timing, so I'd like to know how frequently a well-timed model goes bad in the future and what causes it, firing, or dry-firing.

Thanks.
 
Jim,
You can accept an out of time Colt, or you can get it corrected.
I have two unfired V-Spring Colts that are just fractionally off. They will remain unfired till the timing's corrected. Yes, it did happen, but that didn't make it right.
I've sent three Colts to Cunningham & discussed the timing situation with him.
I had a Python that was off on two chambers, my local Colt-trained guy was able to correct the problem.
The occasional exception only indicates inattention on the part of the builder or inspection process, it doesn't mean that it's acceptable or correct.

You buy a Rolls Royce that inadvertently left the factory with one sparkplug missing. The engine still runs, after a fashion, but do you leave it that way?

Up to you.
The guns WERE designed to function as I stated.
No sarcasm needed, I'm passing on what people far more knowledgeable than you or I have stated.
I made no personal attack on you, just passed on commentary gained from people who have worked on those guns for decades, and who have either been associated with Colt or trained by Colt.

Jay,
What typically causes the timing to go on that specific V-Spring action is the hand shortening.
The hand, in that action, is designed to put pressure directly on the cylinder ratchet tooth at the moment of ignition to lock the cylinder tight against any movement. This is quite different from a Smith, or even later Colt DA models.

When the round fires, recoil shoves the cylinder backward and a good part of the recoil force bears on the small hand surface sitting against the ratchet.
Over time, the friction of repeated contact in merely advancing the cylinder will wear down the contact area of the hand to a degree, but the thing that shortens the hand the most (affecting timing) is repeated battering from recoil forces during live fire.
The more you shoot, the quicker the wear.
Ammunition type and frequency are the biggest determiners of how soon the timing is seriously affected.

The hand is the weakest point in that action & it was expected that it'd need to be serviced with high volume use.
Colt has none left for the Python, dunno if they have any for the DS.
I have three Dick Specials & quite like 'em, but I realize their limitations.

Denis
 
I'll disagree with James k, as my gun smith, a gent in his 80's and whose father was also a gunsmith , has made it clear
ANY slop or movement, whether you cock the hammer as I was told, or not, if the trigger is pulled all the way, and there is movement, pass it by or buy it and get it fixed.
My DS, is first generation, first year production, within the first 300 made

I'll follow the smith's advice over the web naysayers
 
Jay,
You're welcome.
An additional factor with the DS is that toward the end of production Colt was recommending a return to the factory for a checkup after 3000 rounds of Plus P loads.

I like the little Dicks & carried one both off duty & as a backup in the early 80s, I just don't have unreasonable expectations of them & service is getting to be a real issue if needed.

If shot a lot, they'll run into timing issues eventually.
Not saying don't buy one, just understand what you're getting into. :)
Denis
 
As I understand the above:

1. Colts must be perfect or they are no good and not worth having.

2. Colts aren't always perfect, even from the factory.

3. Therefore, owners must spend hundreds of dollars to try and make them perfect.

4. Or buy an S&W, which won't be perfect either, but which will fire more than 3000 rounds without requiring rebuilding.

Jim
 
Jim,

That's overstated. Denis answered properly, I think. The D-frame will work at less than perfect status, but some folks prefer it to work as it was designed, and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
I wouldn't let the chance of a problem deter you from seeking out a DS. Just don't fall for the first one you see unless it checks out.

I was in my LGS, looking at a Glock (I know, the horror!), when I spotted a third generation Dick Special on the shelf. Turns out it had belonged to a former cop that had passed away and his widow was selling off the old gents guns.

This one was in 97%+ condition, with near perfect bluing and looking as though it had less than a box of ammo through it. The only flaw I could see was a ding in the left grip panel.

Needless to say, I left with a Colt instead of a Glock. This is a great shooting little gun and I am very happy with it. BTW, it locks up like a bank vault.

The condition in which I acquired it:
001-XL.jpg


After a bit of work on the stocks:
IMG_1697-XL.jpg

IMG_1700-XL.jpg
 
I guess I have been lucky with D frames. I carried two different DS's and a Cobra during my tenure as a LEO. All three had been fired to some extent before me and I put 1000 to 1500 rounds through each with no problems. They locked up like a bank vault when issued and still did when turned in. I currently own a DS, a Cobra, and an Agent with several hundred rounds through each and they also function perfectly and are in perfect time. I don't subject mine to +p ammo since the newest one is dated 1969. I carry them regularly and practice often. I'm sure some D frames did escape the factory slightly off and they should be repaired by a competent Colt smith or just turned down by a prospective buyer. I just don't believe it's a problem that is encountered on any sort of regular basis.
 
They'll run well beyond 1500 rounds, that's no problem.
I didn't say they were made of eggshells. :)

If you start out with timing issues already present, you're buying a gun that's already a good ways into its lifespan. That hand can only go in one direction with more use- short. It can't grow while you continue to shoot it. Why not look for one that doesn't already have a substantial part of its service life used up?

My first one bought new is still in time & it's 30 years old. I just don't shoot it much.
Denis
 
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