Colt Army .38 sp..bolt/rebound lever issue..

V

vv0350

New member
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I had to rebuild the above Army Special..was in a fire and …it was totally gummed up inside…took it all apart and put it back together and now…the back of the rebound lever doesn't catch the notch on the end/edge of the bolt…so, the bolt lug does not drop down to allow the cylinder to turn. With the grips off, I can see the end of the rebound lever and it just barely, barely touches the end of the bolt..enough to bind up a bit, but not enough to match/catch the ridge on the bolt..
I cannot see anything broken or wrong…any ideas ??
 
Downward pressure by the V spring pushes the rebound lever down to its position of rest. As the rebound lever goes down, the rebound lever shelf pushes the tail of the bolt aside. Once the tail of the bolt clears the rebound lever shelf, then the tail should snap back into place and rest upon the rebound lever shelf.

Is everything reassembled correctly? Does the bolt spring have tension?

I'm wondering if the tail of the bolt was warped by the fire such that it bends in toward the right side of the frame instead of slightly out (toward the sideplate that is removable and toward the rebound lever shelf).
 
bolt

Alas, I replaced the bolt with a new one….swapped it out two days ago…no change..also replaced the main/hammer spring. The old one was about ¼" flat compared to new one. I "think" it is all together correctly…Last night I began wondering about the safety lever…could it even be put in wrong..?
 
Colt parts are not interchangeable. They have to be fitted. Get a copy of Kuhnhausen's book on the earlier Colt revolvers. Better yet, take the NRA Summer revolver repair class at Trinidad State JC. You want Keith Gipson as the instructor (he may also be teaching firearms repair in which case you can bring the Colt). Keith knows Colts. He knew stuff that my first Colt revolver instructor didn't know.

BTW, the safety lever (actually hammer block) goes up and down when the operating link (not the right name) is installed. By pushing the lever up and down (simulating the movement of the trigger), the lever should rise and fall. I do not think that the hammer block is at fault.
 
It sounds to me as if the rear of the bolt has lost its spring tension, or may have warped it inward. If it was, and you replaced it, it will most assuredly need fitting. That end has to fit the rebound lever shelf correctly, and act as Gary mentions. Compare the end of the old one to the new one.
 
Aughhhhh...

Once, twice, three times again, I have taken it apart and checked and rechecked
…the bolt spring has lots of tension..
I had to hone the new bolt in the cylinder lug area, to get it to move up and down properly..that's all the fitting I gave it. It manually cycles up and down and will drop/clear the frame and cylinder when cycled. It looks like the rebound lever should, at some trigger action point, lift the tail of the bolt a little, allowing the bolt lug to move downward, so the cylinder can be released and allowed to turn. The tail of my bolt does NOT reach the rebound lever shelf at all. It just barely touches the end of the forward edge of the rebound shelf.
The next time I get up the gumption to take it apart, I will compare the bolts more carefully…the problem existed with the first bolt and continues with the replacement. Wish you were closer to view…I do have disassembly photos that may/may not show it all...
 
photo...

IMG_0654_zps7003cfe5.jpg
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The tail end of the bolt is a cam, and it springs outward like a leaf spring. The end is tapered, which is the cam surface. The bottom should be flat, and at some point, as the rebound lever moves, the tail of the bolt is pushed in until the flat bottom snaps onto the flat shelf of the rebound lever. When it does this, it moves the bolt until the bolt's end slides off the rebound levers shelf, so the cycle can restart the next time it's cocked.

HLebooks.com has a very good manual on this gun, in e-book form.

e-book:

http://www.hlebooks.com/ebook/coNSload.htm

Photo from e-book, copyright 2013 HLE Books:

im-10.jpg
 
We were told to bend the tail inward slightly toward the rebound lever shelf. Use needle nose pliers and bend near where the hole is and not at the end of the tail. That way the tail is inclined to push against the rebound lever shelf and when the shelf drops lower than the tail, the tail automatically snaps over the rebound lever shelf.
 
Were any other parts replaced? The rebound lever also powers the hand and if the hand is not allowing the lever to come down all the way, it won't engage the tail of the bolt. Also, if the mainspring (V spring) is weak, the rebound lever might not be camming the hammer back; if it doesn't, it again won't engage the tail of the bolt.

In the old days, Colt often bragged about how their "simple" design had fewer parts than S&W. True enough. But they didn't say that that very "simplicity" made their guns horribly complicated to repair or even to diagnose problems.

(I don't have a Colt out right now to look at, but it seems to me that the tail of the bolt is too low (that is the front is too high). Is the new bolt a new part or a "take off" replacement that might have been fitted to another gun or "fixed" (read "butchered") in attempt to fix another gun? If you still have the old one, how does it fit?)

Jim
 
James K brings up a good point. If the tail is bent enough such that it would fit on the shelf and it extends below the rebound lever shelf, then it needs shortening.

Like I said, buy the book or take the class.
 
Sometimes those bolts are worked on to let the ball (the part that engages the cylinder stop) move up further by filing down or bending the part behind the ball that stops on the frame. The person doing that usually doesn't understand that by doing so, the tail of the bolt will be moved too far down for it to engage the rebound lever. The reason I think that may be the case is that the amount of bolt spring showing seems too much.

Jim
 
The locking bolt tail in these guns is basically a flat spring. It exerts very mild pressure against the side of the trigger rebound lever, just enough to stay engage as the lever moves up and withdraws the bolt, so the cylinder will rotate. It is beveled so that it can cam back over the very small tab as the lever moves back down.
In order for this system to work properly several things must be in order.
One, the tab on the trigger rebound lever must be shaped correctly, and in the proper location. Wear will reduce its size, and can lower the top surface, changing its location.
Two, the locking bolt tail needs to be slightly spring loaded against the rebound lever, only barely, and must have the spring memory to return after being camped over the rebound lever tab.
Three, the locking bolt tail needs to be sitting just over the rebound lever tab when the trigger is at rest in its fully forward position, and the bolt cylinder locking head is seated in one of the cylinders locking notches.
If all of these are not met, it will not operate correctly. How exactly it will not operate correctly will depend on which part of this system is out of spec.
 
Below is a screenshot I took, that shows the bolt just about to fall off the rebound lever, and the way it should be placed, when it is set correctly.

Copyright HLE Books, 2013


Colt-2a by matneyw, on Flickr

The dark blue portion of the rebound lever is the cam area and shelf on the side toward the cylinder bolt.
 
THANKS for all the ideas..but..

Ya know, after almost 55 hours of work…from initial total rust removal to now...I finally just give up…bent and honed the bolt and still not go….It is just beyond my present ability…broke the new bolt trying to put a slight bend in place...I have had this thing apart about 35 times...gave the gun back to the owner…..no charge…..not to take an aspirin..
 
"The locking bolt tail in these guns is basically a flat spring. It exerts very mild pressure against the side of the trigger rebound lever..."

True, the bolt tail (the whole bolt) is a spring, but it exerts a pretty strong sideways pressure, necessary to keep it in the path of the rebound lever cam. If the spring is too weak, it will slip off the side of the cam rather than off the top and the bolt will not cam down or will rise too soon.

When the bolt is intact but does not have enough spring force, a repair can sometimes be made by inserting a coil spring behind the tail to hold it against the rebound lever.

Jim
 
James K - I've never seen that done. Since the tail of the bolt rises and falls, how does that coil spring stay in place? Is the outer diameter larger than the bolt tail such that it doesn't matter (wherever the tail is, it remains in contact)? Is a small hole milled into the frame to hold the spring such that it won't jump out from its position?
 
The coil spring (about 2 coils) is larger than the tail and stays in place by friction. I think a better system could be devised, but I did two that way and they seemed to hold up OK. I warned both customers that the fix was temporary, the gun should not be depended on, and that if they had more problems to return them; I never heard back.

Jim
 
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