Colt 45 Gold Cup rear sight screw.
- Thread starter xmastree
- Start date
Dave Sample
Moderator
You might try a little Blue Loc-Tite on the new screw when you install it. Clean it wth acetone, first.
The spring side-loaded detent pin snaps into notches in the elevation screw head in the Eliason sight. This should be all you need to keep it from turning during firing. If you lost the old screw during firing, then either the detent failed or the assembly pin fell out. I've watched someone's detent pin come out during firing. My own Series 70 Goldcup used to lose the dog-legged cross-pin that assembles the sight to the slide and serves as the elevation pivot. So make sure you actually have all the parts. If the whole sight came off during firing, replace the cross-pin with a roll pin that allows free pivoting.
Keep in mind this is a sight elevation adjustment screw. Even though not permenent, blue LocTite will impede your ability to turn it easily and to feel the detent clicks. This matters when you have hearing protection on and there is too much firing around you to hear the clicks. If your sight picture changes with lighting conditions, as mine does, you want to be able to adjust the sight easily and by feel; perhaps even in the middle of a slow-fire string as cloud cover changes. I wouldn't really want to have to turn against LocTite to do that. If that screw is falling out, you have to fix the detent mechanism.
For such a simple mechanism, the Eliason sight causes its fair share of grief. Good luck with it.
Nick
Keep in mind this is a sight elevation adjustment screw. Even though not permenent, blue LocTite will impede your ability to turn it easily and to feel the detent clicks. This matters when you have hearing protection on and there is too much firing around you to hear the clicks. If your sight picture changes with lighting conditions, as mine does, you want to be able to adjust the sight easily and by feel; perhaps even in the middle of a slow-fire string as cloud cover changes. I wouldn't really want to have to turn against LocTite to do that. If that screw is falling out, you have to fix the detent mechanism.
For such a simple mechanism, the Eliason sight causes its fair share of grief. Good luck with it.
Nick
That's it, thanks!
Unclenick, the original screw was long lost before I bought the gun. The one fitted didn't have the serrations, and was glued in place.
The rest of the parts are there, both springs, the detent pin, the pivot pin is solid rather than rolled. But whilst searching for the part I found plenty of forums advising replacing the rolled pin with a solid one, so I'll leave it like that.
It moves freely, just needs the screw.
Follow up: Having ordered it, I was looking around the site and discovered there are three of these, different numbers. My gun is a Gold Cup Nation Match series 80, so I should have ordered 244320c rather than 'a'. I've emailed them about it, hopefully they can change the order...
I wonder what the difference is.
Dave Sample
Moderator
Purple Loc-Tite (222) will also work just fine. These are designed as chemical lock washers and you can turn the screw to adjust them. But please feel free to leave it out and see it it works without it. I would throw that sight in the trash bin, if it were me, and replace it with a Millet Rear made for the Gold Cups. It used to be about $50.00 or so. I nail the cross pin in with Green Loc-tite Sleeve Retainer (640) , also. Every Gold Cup I worked on had the front sight staked on right by me and I installed a rear Millet in place of the one it came with. I give people a life time warranty on my work and I can't back up junk sights. If they do not wish to replace what I want to throw away, then I always pass on the job and sent them to a smith that needs the work.
The only Series ‘80 GC I've ever had occasion to take the Eliason sight apart on was the one I mentioned in my previous post that had a detent pin that kept working loose. I didn't compare it to a Series ‘70 sight at the time, so I don't know what to tell you the difference in the screw is? I wasn’t looking for one. The pre-Series ‘70 guns used a pair of spring-loaded ball bearings on opposite sides of the screw head for detent. The pin replaced this in the Series ’70, but I don’t recall anything being different in the Series ’80? Perhaps someone else will know?
I mentioned the main sight pin in my Series '70 GC kept working its way out while shooting. The solid pin is bent in the middle to hang on to the inside of the hole through the sight body. This doesn't always work perfectly. When I first had this problem I was shooting bull’s eye matches, but hadn't yet learned accuracy work. At the time, an experienced gunsmith advised me to go with the roll pin. I remember both changing that pin and adding a U-shaped stainless shim underneath the sight to tighten its side-to-side fit in the sight channel in the slide.
The trick with the roll pin is to have it friction fit either the slide or the sight body, but not both. Otherwise, it resists elevating. When the roll pin fits the sight body snuggly, it doesn't extend far enough out the sides to re-expand significantly. So if the holes in the slide frame are made slightly larger than the one in the sight body, you get good, free elevation pivoting. You can open up those holes in the frame by a thousandth of an inch with a reamer to get this fit, if they aren’t that much bigger already (this is catch as catch can with Colt).
In hidden areas (like the reamed pin holes) I usually use a toothpick to apply a little Van’s gun blue to help protect the steel. I once did an experiment with a half-dozen cold blues in which I blued the tips of some music wire rods, neutralized the acid with Formula 409 cleaner, rinsed them thoroughly, dried them with acetone, then left the un-lubricated metal sitting in my office on a plastic box. After two weeks, all but the sample treated with Van’s had surface rust; some of it quite substantial. Van’s claims this protective property and it seems to work. The newer Blue Wonder product claims the same thing, but I haven’t tested it yet.
Dave's got a good point about other sights being better designs. It may depend on whether it matters to you to preserve the original configuration closely or not? I've seen the Millet sight for as little as $35. My personal preference is not to have the white low-light markings that come standard on the back of it; not for target shooting, anyway. But you can cover them with sight black, and you will have a mechanically more sound sight.
Nick
I mentioned the main sight pin in my Series '70 GC kept working its way out while shooting. The solid pin is bent in the middle to hang on to the inside of the hole through the sight body. This doesn't always work perfectly. When I first had this problem I was shooting bull’s eye matches, but hadn't yet learned accuracy work. At the time, an experienced gunsmith advised me to go with the roll pin. I remember both changing that pin and adding a U-shaped stainless shim underneath the sight to tighten its side-to-side fit in the sight channel in the slide.
The trick with the roll pin is to have it friction fit either the slide or the sight body, but not both. Otherwise, it resists elevating. When the roll pin fits the sight body snuggly, it doesn't extend far enough out the sides to re-expand significantly. So if the holes in the slide frame are made slightly larger than the one in the sight body, you get good, free elevation pivoting. You can open up those holes in the frame by a thousandth of an inch with a reamer to get this fit, if they aren’t that much bigger already (this is catch as catch can with Colt).
In hidden areas (like the reamed pin holes) I usually use a toothpick to apply a little Van’s gun blue to help protect the steel. I once did an experiment with a half-dozen cold blues in which I blued the tips of some music wire rods, neutralized the acid with Formula 409 cleaner, rinsed them thoroughly, dried them with acetone, then left the un-lubricated metal sitting in my office on a plastic box. After two weeks, all but the sample treated with Van’s had surface rust; some of it quite substantial. Van’s claims this protective property and it seems to work. The newer Blue Wonder product claims the same thing, but I haven’t tested it yet.
Dave's got a good point about other sights being better designs. It may depend on whether it matters to you to preserve the original configuration closely or not? I've seen the Millet sight for as little as $35. My personal preference is not to have the white low-light markings that come standard on the back of it; not for target shooting, anyway. But you can cover them with sight black, and you will have a mechanically more sound sight.
Nick
Dave Sample
Moderator
Thanks for the kind comments, Nick. The Millet Rear Sights come with a Black Target Blade that I used to like. I am a Black on Black man, myself. It was meant to work with the standard front G.C. front sight which was a post type sight great for Bullseye and other disiplines. They are very hard to find now as Colt no longer sells them, and I prefer to use an MGW Stake on Front sight for the '70 Series Cups whose front sights fly off almost every time and are lost in the dirt. It is a modified ramp serrated to take care of glare and I like it better than post type for drawing out of a holster. The '80 series have a .125 front sight that will never fail you. They do not come off! The .055 sight tenon that was standard for years is still with us, though.
Here is a picture of the sight before we staked it in. It had to be reduced from .125 to .055 on the mill first.
It's in to stay now. I like these sights on carry guns and have used them for years. They never come back!
This one is installed on a Norinco and the flat on the top of the slide is already there. So it comes down from.200 to .185 which I like for a fixed sighted 1911 with stock newer Colt rear sight. These are take off's so It costs me about $5.00 for new combat sights.
Yes, I know this doesn't have anything to do with Gold Cups much. I just hope you enjoy the pics. Note the Cold Blue, Nick
Here is a picture of the sight before we staked it in. It had to be reduced from .125 to .055 on the mill first.
It's in to stay now. I like these sights on carry guns and have used them for years. They never come back!
This one is installed on a Norinco and the flat on the top of the slide is already there. So it comes down from.200 to .185 which I like for a fixed sighted 1911 with stock newer Colt rear sight. These are take off's so It costs me about $5.00 for new combat sights.
Yes, I know this doesn't have anything to do with Gold Cups much. I just hope you enjoy the pics. Note the Cold Blue, Nick
Well, the screw arrived, but...
It's easy to see why the original one was lost.
The spring doesn't even touch the screw, so it's free to turn.
What could be wrong? The wrong screw? the spring?
Anyone with similar sight care to take a look at theirs and compare it please?
Those interested in the technical details of the photo...
I used a Nikon D-70, with a 28-80 zoom. 30seconds @ F29 ISO200 Fluorescent light 60mm lens with a cheap and nasty macro attachment.
It's easy to see why the original one was lost.
The spring doesn't even touch the screw, so it's free to turn.
What could be wrong? The wrong screw? the spring?
Anyone with similar sight care to take a look at theirs and compare it please?
Those interested in the technical details of the photo...
I used a Nikon D-70, with a 28-80 zoom. 30seconds @ F29 ISO200 Fluorescent light 60mm lens with a cheap and nasty macro attachment.
Elliason sight
My Series 70 Gold Cup has the same problem. Thought I was going blind, had to keep adjusting the sight. Adjustment screw was backing out with recoil, but never came out. Seems to me the little vertical pin must be pushed by a spring I can't see, into notches in the screw. Maybe the spring is gunked up or broken. I'll be glad to read what you gurus have to say about this.
cptmclark
My Series 70 Gold Cup has the same problem. Thought I was going blind, had to keep adjusting the sight. Adjustment screw was backing out with recoil, but never came out. Seems to me the little vertical pin must be pushed by a spring I can't see, into notches in the screw. Maybe the spring is gunked up or broken. I'll be glad to read what you gurus have to say about this.
cptmclark
Sorry to take so long getting back to this. I've been tied up with work.
I looked at my series 70 because I haven't had an Eliason sight apart for so long I didn't really recall the details. I am tempted to disassemble it completely to refinish the rear sight blade, which I may do; and if I do I will make a CAD model of it and share the drawing views.
Looking at yours, I spy two differences: First, mine has a roll pin and not a solid. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the cross pin (vertical elevation) worked loose repeatedly because the bend in it didn't have enough of an angle. I replaced it with a roll pin. I may have done the same with the elevation detent pin and simply don't recall any longer. Curse of old age.
The thing that jumps out comparing your photo to my sight is that on mine the end of a spring is visible behind the pin on the side opposite the elevation screw at the bottom of the detent pin alcove in the side of the screw recess. I think if you pull the detent pin out, you should see a horizontal hole for the missing spring. Without it, the pin should wobble fore and aft in yours pretty freely. The thing to verify is that it can wobble forward into the detent successfully.
Sorry I don't have a nice close-up tube to get a photo with. I have been starting to look at digital cameras more recently. I'm trying to find one with an underwater housing that can export RAW file formats compatible with Photoshop. If you have a recommendation, please advise me.
Nick
I looked at my series 70 because I haven't had an Eliason sight apart for so long I didn't really recall the details. I am tempted to disassemble it completely to refinish the rear sight blade, which I may do; and if I do I will make a CAD model of it and share the drawing views.
Looking at yours, I spy two differences: First, mine has a roll pin and not a solid. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the cross pin (vertical elevation) worked loose repeatedly because the bend in it didn't have enough of an angle. I replaced it with a roll pin. I may have done the same with the elevation detent pin and simply don't recall any longer. Curse of old age.
The thing that jumps out comparing your photo to my sight is that on mine the end of a spring is visible behind the pin on the side opposite the elevation screw at the bottom of the detent pin alcove in the side of the screw recess. I think if you pull the detent pin out, you should see a horizontal hole for the missing spring. Without it, the pin should wobble fore and aft in yours pretty freely. The thing to verify is that it can wobble forward into the detent successfully.
Sorry I don't have a nice close-up tube to get a photo with. I have been starting to look at digital cameras more recently. I'm trying to find one with an underwater housing that can export RAW file formats compatible with Photoshop. If you have a recommendation, please advise me.
Nick
Eureka!
Much more fun than simply calling the manufacturer.
Remove the vertical adjustment screw (carefully as there is a spring involved) holding the sight down with your thumb. Notice that the vertical pin is now probably free to move up and down. It shouldn't be, but it is. When the pin is down, and the sight is up (beyond its adjustment range cause the screw is removed) you can see the spring in its hole, fore and aft, which should be protruding into the space occupied by the pin and holding it forward, except it ain't. On mine at least, the spring was too short, obviously from being compressed these 35 years, and no longer supplying pressure against the detent pin. Not having a new spring for a proper fix, I simply stretched the old one, reinstalled (no small task in that tiny hole). By compressing the spring out of the way of the pin (which is below the hole when the sight is raised above its adjustment range) you can press the sight back down over the pin, release the spring against the pin and while holding down firmly on the sight, replace the adjustment screw, and voila!... she works again. I'll order the proper spring for a real fix, but don't know if my nerves will allow me to fuss with those tiny parts again.
Much more fun than simply calling the manufacturer.
Remove the vertical adjustment screw (carefully as there is a spring involved) holding the sight down with your thumb. Notice that the vertical pin is now probably free to move up and down. It shouldn't be, but it is. When the pin is down, and the sight is up (beyond its adjustment range cause the screw is removed) you can see the spring in its hole, fore and aft, which should be protruding into the space occupied by the pin and holding it forward, except it ain't. On mine at least, the spring was too short, obviously from being compressed these 35 years, and no longer supplying pressure against the detent pin. Not having a new spring for a proper fix, I simply stretched the old one, reinstalled (no small task in that tiny hole). By compressing the spring out of the way of the pin (which is below the hole when the sight is raised above its adjustment range) you can press the sight back down over the pin, release the spring against the pin and while holding down firmly on the sight, replace the adjustment screw, and voila!... she works again. I'll order the proper spring for a real fix, but don't know if my nerves will allow me to fuss with those tiny parts again.
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Dave Sample
Moderator
Here is my solution to the problem. This is a Caspian Gold Cup that I rebuilt after another smith replaced the lower end and ruined a stock Colt barrel. It was then a basket case and worthless, so it came to me. I replaced the barrel with a Kart EZ Fit, replaced the trigger group and slide stop, ejector and some other stuff and had the lower end re-finished and added some nice Colt Factory grips to it.
The Millet rear looks good and works good as it has been in service for 18 years with no problem. This gun sold in 23 hours after I put it in the marketplace. I delivered it Friday last.
Beautiful gun Dave
Definately a work of art Dave, and a testimony to the skill of the artesian who built it. Of course some may say it's cheating to build a complete custom gun to correct a sight spring problem. Har.
Oh yea, regarding your well taken post about prefering large guns with large bullets; we are a Navy family, and...well....er....have you seen our big bullets? I wish I could rig up a 16 incher into a concealed carry rig. I can't even get the breech in my van, let alone the bullets and sacks of powder.
On a serious note, whadayathink about the one shot stops percentage pubs that show near equal results with certain loads in the 357, 45, 40, and 9mm? I too am a proponent of the bowling ball theory, but if these results are correct, for cc I think I'd rather have a small 11 round 96% stopper than a much heavier 6 round bigger bore 96% stopper. This being the smithy forum I must add that I'm doing research to choose my next concealable stopper buildup project. I could just go to the store...naw
Definately a work of art Dave, and a testimony to the skill of the artesian who built it. Of course some may say it's cheating to build a complete custom gun to correct a sight spring problem. Har.
Oh yea, regarding your well taken post about prefering large guns with large bullets; we are a Navy family, and...well....er....have you seen our big bullets? I wish I could rig up a 16 incher into a concealed carry rig. I can't even get the breech in my van, let alone the bullets and sacks of powder.
On a serious note, whadayathink about the one shot stops percentage pubs that show near equal results with certain loads in the 357, 45, 40, and 9mm? I too am a proponent of the bowling ball theory, but if these results are correct, for cc I think I'd rather have a small 11 round 96% stopper than a much heavier 6 round bigger bore 96% stopper. This being the smithy forum I must add that I'm doing research to choose my next concealable stopper buildup project. I could just go to the store...naw
Dave Sample
Moderator
I carry a 1954 Colt LW Commander, revised by me. I carry it loaded with 8 rounds of 1954 GI ball ammo. I use a CMC Power mag with 7 rounds in it, and the 8th round in the chamber. I do carry less some days, but not often. That is my theory of a proper CCW gun.
carpfisher
New member
A couple of replies ago, Dave mentioned that the front sight never comes off on Series 80 GC. Well, there is an exception to every rule! I was scoring like doggy-do-do at PPC last fall and couldn't figure out why. Then I heard a rattle and found the front sight was falling off. We tried staking and gluing w/epoxy as a temp. fix and that of course, worked loose agin as was eveident by my scores. Marianne Carniak had a old front sight from her Dad that she had custom made at her favorite machine shop and installed it. It is a dovetail that is paralllel to the barrel rather than perpendicular. This was due to the large tenon as was shown earlier. If I can get a digital camera I will get a picture but I got to tell you, it is a sweet job. The installation in perfect and the gun is a tack driver again. Great work at a great price. I think it was $75.00 including the one of a kind, custom machined sight!
For those that don't know Marianne, She is Accurizer Gun Shop in Troy, MI.
Greg
For those that don't know Marianne, She is Accurizer Gun Shop in Troy, MI.
Greg
Dave Sample
Moderator
Shocking! Was it the "New" .125 tenon? Some of the early '80 series still had the old standby .055 sight tenon and they left with the wind between 1 and 500 rounds. I am glad she did a great fix on it for you. I will be looking for pictures! You just proved my point about Gold Cups, though. They SHOULD be the best and they aren't.