Colt 1911 Passes- Kimber Fails NIJ Testing

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7th Fleet

New member
The National Institute of Justice through its Office of Law Enforcement Standards has developed minimum performance standards for revolvers, autoloading pistols and shotguns for police use. Recognizing that the vast majority of law enforcement agencies today use autoloading pistols as their issued duty weapon.
NIJ Standard 0112.03 addresses four calibers of weapons: 9mm Luger, .357 Sig. .40 S&W, and .45acp. These are the four calibers that are commonly chosen for law enforcement as their primary duty weapons. Eight manufacturers (Colt, Glock, Kahr Arms, Kimber, Ruger, Sig Arms, Smith & Wesson and Taurus) agreed to submit a total of 23 pistol models for testing. Colt submitted the Government Model, Kimber the Stainless Ultra Carry .40 S&W and Ultra Carry .45acp, the stainless Ultra Carry failed to pass the firing tests and drop function, the other failed the dimensional requirements, meaning that the gun did not meet SAAMI specifications. Both models failed again upon retesting and the manufacturer elected not to resubmit the models for retesting. This is the preliminary results, I have asked that the entire test be mailed to my agency. The Taurus PT945 & PT957 also failed and the Sig SP2340 failed. All the Glocks passed, as did the Smith & Wessons, Khars, and Rugers. I will have the complete report in a few days.

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[This message has been edited by 7th Fleet (edited February 24, 2000).]
 
This wouldn't have anything to do with Colt and the Gov. making cozy, would it? Colt owes it's existence to the Gov, and in return acts as it's lackey.
And what does a Kimber Ultra Carry have to do with a Colt Gov. model?
 
Actually this reprot only outlines what you should do to test a pistol.
It does not provide any reccommendation of which pistol to choose.

Still the evaluation critereon are interesting.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the stainless Ultra Carry failed to pass the firing tests and drop function, the other failed the dimensional requirements, meaning that the gun did not meet SAAMI specifications. Both models failed again upon retesting and the manufacturer elected not to resubmit the models for retesting. [/quote]

Meaning: a gold-plated POS is still a POS. Colt 45 be da one!

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
o If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... Wild Bill Hickok
o 45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
o It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson
o It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
o When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
Kimber failed the FBI single stack trials also. They failed the reliability test and their accuracy was horrible, over 3" at 25 yards when the standard required was 1.5".

Brian
 
Frankly they were stupid to submit the Ultra Carry for test against full size guns.
And B!gG, the reason it wouldn't pass the drop test is that it is a series 70 style design, the design as JOHN BROWNING designed it, rather than the bastardized version Colt produces now. ;)
 
Now R!k, settle down, that's a good boy!

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
o If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... Wild Bill Hickok
o 45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
o It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson
o It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
o When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
Well, YOU'RE the gunsmith Brian, you tell me...I was just having some fun with B!gG, not attempting a serious analysis. But if I had to guess I would say it probably had something to do with the fact Kimber submitted the Ultra Carry while it seems that the others submitted full size guns. Hard to say without more data though.
 
Brian,

What is it specifically about the Kimbers as compared to the Springfields ect. that would make them less reliable ? I know the "slide to frame fit is too tight" argument, but I also know it would loosen up over time. Also, since so many people insist that a tight frame fit is what counts for accuracy, wouldn't the Kimber (if not reliable) at least been more accurate than the others ?
 
My bet that the reason why the Kimber failed the drop test, if they actually did-we don't know this yet, is because they didn't have a heavy firing pin spring in the gun. A cheap fix. As for Kimber reliability problems, I have 8 Kimbers in shop now and they all have the same problems. Tight chambers and loose extractor tension. Both of these can lead to reliability problems. Sometimes the underlugs on the barrels aren't clearanced for the slide stop travel during unlock and it bumps the lug which can lead to malfunctions. Seen this too.

As for the accuracy problems, slide to frame fit accounts for about 5% of accuracy on a iron sighted gun so long as the barrrel and bushing are fit right. The problems with Kimbers can sometimes be that the barrels are just dropped in the guns and are not properly headspaced and ther leade cut into the rifling like it should. I have seen a few where it looked like to me the chamber was not true to the bore (Could be true if the use a boring bar instead of a reamer to chamber and the barrel wasn't chucked up true) ans sometimes they are not fir up right and what happens is the dwell time in battery is shorter, the gun starts to unlock early and the gun will string groups vertically.

Who knows why it failed, but they did. The reason why Springfield and Pro-Gun both passed the trials is that 1)They knew how to put a gun together to begin with 2)They used what parts they knew would probably do the job regardless of manufacture whereas others used in house parts that weren't up to the job 3)They were hand fit and tuned, not slapped together.

The biggest problem with the FBI trials is the accuracy requirement to begin with. 1 1/2 inches at 25 with Gold Saber is a b-tch cause the ammo sucks to be blunt. The velocity deviations are quite a bit. The reason for that tight a group come from the fact that a famous IPSC shooter who does training from them told them that's what a gun should shoot. Yea, with match ammo but not with duty loads. Too tight a standard and that's why a bunch of people bombed the test, including Colt and others.

Brian
 
Any bets on how long Massad Ayoob takes to get an article published claiming that you should not carry a pistol that failed the NIJ tests because its inherently unsafe design will be used against you in court?
 
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