jeffelkins
New member
1911 Newbie: I've read here that the M1911/M1991A1 is designed to be carried cocked & locked. Is it unsafe to carry with one in the pipe and the hammer down? If so, why?
Cocked & Locked?
- Thread starter jeffelkins
- Start date
There is never any reason to ever let the hammer down on a live round in a 1911. One of thes days your thumbs gonna slip and you're going to have an AD. The gun is perfectly safe cocked and locked. Practice with it and learn the safety rules. Always treat the muzzle of any gun as an always turned on lazer beam. Anything the muzzle points at it cuts into. The other rule about not puting your trigger finger on the trigger until your sights are on the target, is violated by leting the hammer down on a live round. Another thing in an emergency you are apt to fumble the cocking of the hammer. Nothing is faster, more sure or safer than cocked and locked. Condition 2 which is chamber empty and mag loaded, is safe but this is to slow for self defense. Condition one, cocked and locked is the only way to go...7th
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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
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SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL POLICE, KEEP THEM INDEPENDENT.
Rob Pincus
New member
There are better people around here to answer that question, but here's a quick response:
Yes and no.
Depends on the gun, older model 1911s are not designed to keep the firing pin from being sent into the primer by a hard blow from the rear. This means that if you have the hammer resting on the pin and give it a good whallop, even without pulling the trigger, the firing pin can move forward hard enough to discharge the round.
OTOH, you can use a "half-cock", which is actually much more like a 1/8-1/4 cock, in which the hammer is not brought all the way back into the firing position, but it locked up off the firing pin.
OR, many modern 1911 designs have safety mechanisms designed to keep the firing pin from moving unless the trigger is pulled.
Of course, the gun was desined to be carried, cocked, with the safety on, and a round in the chamber.. anything else is, techinally, wrong. Safe options do exist, like the half-cock, or carrying with the chamber empty, but both are infinitely slower than the proper method.
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-Essayons
Yes and no.
Depends on the gun, older model 1911s are not designed to keep the firing pin from being sent into the primer by a hard blow from the rear. This means that if you have the hammer resting on the pin and give it a good whallop, even without pulling the trigger, the firing pin can move forward hard enough to discharge the round.
OTOH, you can use a "half-cock", which is actually much more like a 1/8-1/4 cock, in which the hammer is not brought all the way back into the firing position, but it locked up off the firing pin.
OR, many modern 1911 designs have safety mechanisms designed to keep the firing pin from moving unless the trigger is pulled.
Of course, the gun was desined to be carried, cocked, with the safety on, and a round in the chamber.. anything else is, techinally, wrong. Safe options do exist, like the half-cock, or carrying with the chamber empty, but both are infinitely slower than the proper method.
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-Essayons
I would not carry ANY 1911, of any age with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. Not that there would be any chance of the round going off if the hammer was to receive a solid whack, the inertia FP would not be long enough to transmit a blow to the primer. The rub is in getting the hammer all the way down without removing a toe. It can be done but the trigger has to be held back until the hammer is past the half cock notch to make sure that the sear does not engage that notch. The half cock notch was not intended as a carry notch but as a safety notch to catch the hammer if the full cock notch should fail for some reason. A 1911 WILL fire if the half cock notch were to break and allow th hammer to fall. Lowering the hammer to the half cock notch also has the possiblity of the sear catching the edge of the notch and not seating correctly, in that case not much effort at all will cause the hammer to fall, firing the chambered round.
When you rememer that the military's original requirements for what became the 1911 called for an "automatic safety" that was engaged when theistol was out of hand and disengaged when the pistol was in hand, it appeared that the intent was for the pistol to be carried cocked without any safety other than the "automatic safety" being engaged. What one might call Condition 0. The Model 1910 Browning/Colt lacked the thumb safety and it was not until testing was under way and (I think) the loss of several horses due to ND's was the thumb safety added.
I know that all this is more than you asked about but information is free, unless you can get me a Shiner Bock or two, then it'll cost you. LOL
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
When you rememer that the military's original requirements for what became the 1911 called for an "automatic safety" that was engaged when theistol was out of hand and disengaged when the pistol was in hand, it appeared that the intent was for the pistol to be carried cocked without any safety other than the "automatic safety" being engaged. What one might call Condition 0. The Model 1910 Browning/Colt lacked the thumb safety and it was not until testing was under way and (I think) the loss of several horses due to ND's was the thumb safety added.
I know that all this is more than you asked about but information is free, unless you can get me a Shiner Bock or two, then it'll cost you. LOL
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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
jeffelkins
New member
Thanks for the feedback! My main concern was a blow to the rear, causing a AD. The slippery thumb is a real concern too.
I carry my Glock in condition one, but I'll probably carry the M1991A1 in C2 until I feel more comfortable with it.
BTW, on my M1991A1 the grip safety is unreliable. The pistol will dryfire if enough pressure is exerted on the trigger, even though the grip safety is untouched.
We're (wife and I) on a two gun a month kick...Now we have to buy a Sig
I carry my Glock in condition one, but I'll probably carry the M1991A1 in C2 until I feel more comfortable with it.
BTW, on my M1991A1 the grip safety is unreliable. The pistol will dryfire if enough pressure is exerted on the trigger, even though the grip safety is untouched.
We're (wife and I) on a two gun a month kick...Now we have to buy a Sig
I carry my Colt Officer's model 1991AI in cocked and locked all the time. I am somewhat young in the CCW world; but I have no problem with a modern well kept 1911 being carried cocked and locked. The reason I say this I personally and accidently performed the drop test on my Officer's model. I was trying to do something in the house, and my gun slipped out of the el cheapo uncle Mike's holster and landed butt first on the floor, no accidental Discharge thank God.
Cocked and locked scares some, but what little bit I have learned is that there are at least 3 safties that have to be defeated for the 1911 to fire. Grip safety, thumb safety, and one internal safety; its hard to accidently defeat all three at once but can be done. Personally I am more concerned about carrying a DAO autoloader with one in the chamber, nothing but an internal saftey prevents firing, but I will get used to carrying my Kahr that way too.
Follow good gun safety rules and you should have no trouble. Know yourself, Know your weapon, and Know your target.
DaHaMac
Cocked and locked scares some, but what little bit I have learned is that there are at least 3 safties that have to be defeated for the 1911 to fire. Grip safety, thumb safety, and one internal safety; its hard to accidently defeat all three at once but can be done. Personally I am more concerned about carrying a DAO autoloader with one in the chamber, nothing but an internal saftey prevents firing, but I will get used to carrying my Kahr that way too.
Follow good gun safety rules and you should have no trouble. Know yourself, Know your weapon, and Know your target.
DaHaMac
Hi, guys,
Carrying cocked and locked does not prevent an accidental discharge when the firing pin's inertia causes it to move forward relative to the slide due to a blow FROM THE FRONT. This is usually the result of the gun landing on its muzzle on a hard surface after being dropped from a height of at least four feet. Sensitive primers may exacerbate the situation.
A blow from the back on an uncocked hammer is very unlikely to transmit enough force to move the firing pin, especially since the pin's own inertia will cause it to remain in the rearward position. (I have ruined a couple of hammers trying this.)
Nor can a hammer in the cocked and locked position be driven forward by a blow to fire the pistol. The hammer is not only blocked by the sear, but also by the safety which will not allow the hammer to fall even if there is complete sear or sear notch failure.
The modern firing pin locks should positively prevent firing pin movement unless the trigger is pulled or, in some designs, the grip safety is depressed. But it is well to remember that they are spring dependent, and that failure of the spring or binding of the lock can cause them to become non-operational.
Jim
Carrying cocked and locked does not prevent an accidental discharge when the firing pin's inertia causes it to move forward relative to the slide due to a blow FROM THE FRONT. This is usually the result of the gun landing on its muzzle on a hard surface after being dropped from a height of at least four feet. Sensitive primers may exacerbate the situation.
A blow from the back on an uncocked hammer is very unlikely to transmit enough force to move the firing pin, especially since the pin's own inertia will cause it to remain in the rearward position. (I have ruined a couple of hammers trying this.)
Nor can a hammer in the cocked and locked position be driven forward by a blow to fire the pistol. The hammer is not only blocked by the sear, but also by the safety which will not allow the hammer to fall even if there is complete sear or sear notch failure.
The modern firing pin locks should positively prevent firing pin movement unless the trigger is pulled or, in some designs, the grip safety is depressed. But it is well to remember that they are spring dependent, and that failure of the spring or binding of the lock can cause them to become non-operational.
Jim
Definitely carry it condition I.
Example I: BG ready to blow a hole the size of Texas through your body. You fumble around with your M1991A1's safety and pull the trigger. Of course nothing happens.
A. BG gotcha or B. BG gotcha
Congrats! You just became a human donut
Example II:
Same scenerio, BG ready to make you into a human cherio. Due to the high stress of the situation, you fumble with the safety and try to cock the hammer back. Worse case scenerio, you screw up and shoot yourself in the foot. BG makes you into a human donut. OR fumbling around with the safety and hammer takes too much time and the BG completely ruins your day.
In other words, if you can not carry your 1911 Cocked and Locked, then go with a revolver or some other DA. No point in using your M1991A1 as a carry piece if you can't carry it the way it was designed.
Just my 2 cents
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Svt
RKBA!
Member, Veterans of Foreign Wars, NRA, GOA
My Website
"Rangers Lead the Way"
[This message has been edited by Svt (edited February 27, 2000).]
Example I: BG ready to blow a hole the size of Texas through your body. You fumble around with your M1991A1's safety and pull the trigger. Of course nothing happens.
A. BG gotcha or B. BG gotcha
Congrats! You just became a human donut
Example II:
Same scenerio, BG ready to make you into a human cherio. Due to the high stress of the situation, you fumble with the safety and try to cock the hammer back. Worse case scenerio, you screw up and shoot yourself in the foot. BG makes you into a human donut. OR fumbling around with the safety and hammer takes too much time and the BG completely ruins your day.
In other words, if you can not carry your 1911 Cocked and Locked, then go with a revolver or some other DA. No point in using your M1991A1 as a carry piece if you can't carry it the way it was designed.
Just my 2 cents
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Svt
RKBA!
Member, Veterans of Foreign Wars, NRA, GOA
My Website
"Rangers Lead the Way"
[This message has been edited by Svt (edited February 27, 2000).]
Guys,
I hate to sound pompous, but I sense a little confusion here. 7th fleet referred to Condition Two as "chamber empty," and Jeff says he plans to carry his 1911 in Condition Two?
Condition One has been correctly described as "Cocked and locked," i.e., chamber loaded, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and manual (thumb) safety engaged. The manual safety must be released by the firing hand thumb before the pistol can be fired.
A cocked and UNlocked 1911 would be in Condition Zero, as described above. So far, so good.
Condition Two is hammer DOWN over a LOADED chamber, with a loaded magazine in place. To fire the pistol, it is necessary to deliberately cock the hammer. This is clumsy to perform one-handed, especially under stress, and at best is cocked with the thumb of the support hand as it is presented, assuming you have both hands available in a fight. It also requires the shooter to hold the trigger back while easing the hammer down past the half-cock notch. Let the hammer slip, and....
Condition Three is hammer down over an EMPTY chamber, with a loaded magazine in place. This is also know as military half-load, as it is the mode of carry most often authorized for and used by military personnel. Must feel good to be a U.S. Marine on Embassy duty in some of the less friendly countries, huh? This requires two hands to get the pistol ready to fight, and again, one may not always have two hands available, right? Of course, there are tricks to rack the slide one handed, but these are usually difficult to perform quickly and efficiently under stress.
Condition Four is chamber empty, no loaded magazine in place. This is the only proper condition for a pistol that must be left lying unattended; if the pistol isn't on the owner's person, the magazine should be.
Jeff, a 1911 pistol in Condition is as safe as a loaded handgun can be (y'know, Rule #1 and all that). Assuming the pistol is in good maechanical condition, it will not 'go off' all by itself. You'll have to press the trigger to make it go bang. The only difference between a 1911 in Condition One and a Glock is that with the 1911, the shooter has to press the grip safety correctly and release the thumb safety to fire the pistol. With the Glock, it is only necessary to press the trigger, automatically releasing the passive safeties.
Jeff, please don't carry your 1911 in Condition Two or Three. Condition Two can lead to a negligent discharge, and Condition Three can make it very difficult to get the pistol ready to fight. Until you feel comfortable with Condition One carry, I would suggest that you carry your Glock, although if you can safely carry a fully loaded Glock, you can safely carry a cocked and locked 1911. It's your responsibility, and your life, so it's your choice, but it's usually best to carry a gun in the mode it's designed for.
Good luck, and stay safe.
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Roger Shambaugh
Ottawa, Kansas
"No man who's in the wrong can stand against
a man who knows he's right and keeps on
a-comin'." Capt. Bill McDonald, Texas Rangers
I hate to sound pompous, but I sense a little confusion here. 7th fleet referred to Condition Two as "chamber empty," and Jeff says he plans to carry his 1911 in Condition Two?
Condition One has been correctly described as "Cocked and locked," i.e., chamber loaded, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, and manual (thumb) safety engaged. The manual safety must be released by the firing hand thumb before the pistol can be fired.
A cocked and UNlocked 1911 would be in Condition Zero, as described above. So far, so good.
Condition Two is hammer DOWN over a LOADED chamber, with a loaded magazine in place. To fire the pistol, it is necessary to deliberately cock the hammer. This is clumsy to perform one-handed, especially under stress, and at best is cocked with the thumb of the support hand as it is presented, assuming you have both hands available in a fight. It also requires the shooter to hold the trigger back while easing the hammer down past the half-cock notch. Let the hammer slip, and....
Condition Three is hammer down over an EMPTY chamber, with a loaded magazine in place. This is also know as military half-load, as it is the mode of carry most often authorized for and used by military personnel. Must feel good to be a U.S. Marine on Embassy duty in some of the less friendly countries, huh? This requires two hands to get the pistol ready to fight, and again, one may not always have two hands available, right? Of course, there are tricks to rack the slide one handed, but these are usually difficult to perform quickly and efficiently under stress.
Condition Four is chamber empty, no loaded magazine in place. This is the only proper condition for a pistol that must be left lying unattended; if the pistol isn't on the owner's person, the magazine should be.
Jeff, a 1911 pistol in Condition is as safe as a loaded handgun can be (y'know, Rule #1 and all that). Assuming the pistol is in good maechanical condition, it will not 'go off' all by itself. You'll have to press the trigger to make it go bang. The only difference between a 1911 in Condition One and a Glock is that with the 1911, the shooter has to press the grip safety correctly and release the thumb safety to fire the pistol. With the Glock, it is only necessary to press the trigger, automatically releasing the passive safeties.
Jeff, please don't carry your 1911 in Condition Two or Three. Condition Two can lead to a negligent discharge, and Condition Three can make it very difficult to get the pistol ready to fight. Until you feel comfortable with Condition One carry, I would suggest that you carry your Glock, although if you can safely carry a fully loaded Glock, you can safely carry a cocked and locked 1911. It's your responsibility, and your life, so it's your choice, but it's usually best to carry a gun in the mode it's designed for.
Good luck, and stay safe.
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Roger Shambaugh
Ottawa, Kansas
"No man who's in the wrong can stand against
a man who knows he's right and keeps on
a-comin'." Capt. Bill McDonald, Texas Rangers
I think the best way to carry a 1911 is the way the military did for years. Hammer down on an empty chamber,condition 3, I believe the experts call it.
You dont have to have a good memory,or worry about itty bitty parts failing at the wrong time.
Besides,if you dont have time to load the pistol,the bad guy is probably on you or close enough to you that the pistol would make a better club or set of brass knucks in that case.
I know this is not the popular view,but it is one I think has merit.
You dont have to have a good memory,or worry about itty bitty parts failing at the wrong time.
Besides,if you dont have time to load the pistol,the bad guy is probably on you or close enough to you that the pistol would make a better club or set of brass knucks in that case.
I know this is not the popular view,but it is one I think has merit.
killer45auto
New member
coked and locked ,one in the pipe is the best way!also most gunsmiths will tell you that releasing the hammer on a 1911 and lowering it by the thumb is a quick way to destroy a new trigger job that the only way to let the hammer fall is to pull the trigger on a empty chamberif in doubt read wilsons book on the 1911
Always thought cocked and locked was pretty dangerous. When I bought my HP I saw it differently. Cocked and Locked is the fastest way to employ a firearm. Well split second to Glock. If you are not comfortable with cond.1 in 1911 then you shouldn't carry a Glock. Glocks are cocked with NO lock.
jeffelkins
New member
Sorry for the confusion. I said C2, when I meant C3 (empty chamber,full mag).
I keep the Glock in C3 when it's at home, when it's out of the house and on the hip it stays in C1. I'll probably do the same with the M1991A1 once I put a few boxes of ammo through it.
My main question was the mechanical safety of a 1911 in C2. The concensus seems to be that C2 in and of itself is mechanically safe, but the act of placing the weapon into C2 is unsafe due to thumb slippage and such.
Thanks for the feedback.
I keep the Glock in C3 when it's at home, when it's out of the house and on the hip it stays in C1. I'll probably do the same with the M1991A1 once I put a few boxes of ammo through it.
My main question was the mechanical safety of a 1911 in C2. The concensus seems to be that C2 in and of itself is mechanically safe, but the act of placing the weapon into C2 is unsafe due to thumb slippage and such.
Thanks for the feedback.