CNBC's "Gunfight-Remington Under Fire"

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Wyoredman

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Last night, after the football game, I was surfing the channels and came across a CNBC documentary that grabbed my attention. http://www.cnbc.com/remington-under-fire/

The hour long program was a discussion about the Remington Model 700 and it's supposed trigger/firing pin/safety problems and the "cover-up" that Remington has been perpetrating since the 1970's.

I am a Model 700 owner, and have never had a problem with my rifles, BUT...

After watching the program, my instincts were saying "Get your triggers replaced" but I was also thinking "this is just anti-gun hype".

I know that Remington is now offering to replace triggers in any Model 700 sent to them.

So, I come to my quandary. Do I send my rifles in for the modification, or was this program just an anti-gun chance to bash one of the largest gun manufacturers in the country?

I have heard the stories concerning the Model 700 triggers for years, but I believed the mishaps were operator error. Some of the video has got me thinking differently.

Did anyone else see the program? What are your thoughts?
 
Didn't see the show, but do have a Remington 700, a left-handed model. No problems with it.

I consider the show to be part of the gun control agenda to inculcate the hive-mind of the public that we should regulate firearms as any other consumer product, so that finally we will have lethal weapons safe for children to play with.

Having said that, if Remington is replacing trigger groups there is a reason for it, from cost effectiveness in lieu of a class action suit based on poor gun handling by a few owners, to a genuine need to change out a poorly designed or functioning part.

As an aside, what part of not walking around the woods with a loaded deer rifle do some people not understand? I never load the chamber until a shot presents itself.
 
I’ve seen it before and must admit some of the video they show of guns firing without touching the trigger did get my attention. I don’t really remember why Remington said those guns fired or if they even admitted it was an issue, but again, it got my attention. If I owned one of the suspect guns and Remington was offering a “fix/upgrade” I would probably seriously consider it.
 
I have not seen the show and I don't own a Remington 700. What I have read about the guns and the issue over the years has convinced me that the problem is genuine, that Remington tried to sweep it under the carpet for years, and that anyone who owns a Remington 700 should get it fixed.

Manufacturers don't offer to replace parts for free unless there's a problem.
 
Did anyone else see the program? What are your thoughts?
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Saw the program when it aired. It was well publicized. We discussed it at length in 2010...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426277&highlight=remington+cnbc

Regardless of what folks think, Remington has lost a BUNCH of lawsuits on record before they finally smartened up and started settling out of court with nondisclosure agreements. Then AFTER the 2010 CNBC story, they finally instituted recalls.

The Walker triggers are defective. Remington has recalled them. Remington has recalled some of the triggers that came out to replace the Walker triggers.
 
I like all the 'I didn't see the show, but it must be anti-gun propoganda' posts.

As previously indicated, Remington lost several suits on this, they settled some out of court, and the show clearly demonstrates the flaw. I believe there are some youtube videos around also.

I certainly wouldn't own one of the old triggers. I don't think I would want to knowingly shoot/hunt with someone who did either.
 
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its very heart wrenching to hear a family that lost a son in that way, especially since I have a son close in age. I don't dispute that Remington, a multi-billion sales company in hundred of millions of debt, hid/destroyed/covered-up and everything else that huge companies do to save their skin. I fault Remington to the same degree that I fault the parents that pointed a LOADED RIFLE AT THEIR CHILD. I can be careless at times when shooting, I've caught myself making dumb moves and mistakes, but even when I clean/work-on/take apart a gun, if son is in the house I am in constant attention of where my barrel is pointed, to a degree of OCD. I couldn't imagine how horrific their tragedy was, and understand how one could get obsessed with the fact that the gun-maker could have implemented a safer design/recall that could have stopped the tragedy from happening, but it would be false to find solace in putting the rifle at blame. I'm sorry for their loss and they obviously loved their son as much as any parent, but at some point they need to admit that accidents happen and a 100% safe gun is not going to exist, but not pointing guns at people would stop any accidental shootings.
 
I "read" somewhere in the last two or three years that the problem has been known since 1947.

(Whether true or not, I did read it in print somewhere, but I can't remember where.)
 
Triggers by nature are fragile in there operation. They must hold the sear and release it with a some what light pull by the shooter. The two fuctions of the trigger are at odds with one another so compormises must be made. It is my position that no product is perfectly safe and it is up to the owner, driver, shooter etc.. to educate themselves as to the safe operation of the product in question.

Wyoredman if you feel the trigger does not offer you reliable service then YES you should replace it, but I have not seen anything that convinces me that Remington's trigger (if well maintained) is unsafe.

Good luck!
 
I bought my 700 in pawn shop back in Miami in the early 80s, and I think the date code makes it a late 60s production. I haven't' shot it much, but I haven't had any problems with the trigger. Now I'm wondering if I should send it back to Remington for a free replacement or just leave well enough alone. So far, I haven't been able to duplicate any malfunction, and I've tried.

It was my understanding that the problems stemmed from the adjustment screws that were working loose and/or the Loctite degrading whether from wear or tampering.

I did work on a couple of Remington triggers in Miami in the 80s, but the problems were caused by a botched up job of Sol Numbnuts trying to lighten his trigger pull. There is a very definite method of insuring that the trigger is safe and doesn't fall off, and it requires a correct balance of the trigger engagement screw, the trigger adjusting screw and the trigger stop screw.
 
I know of one with the issue. Pull the trigger; several seconds later it would fire! it got sent back. The problem is certainly real.
 
The problem is real, I have a 1974 production rifle that has done it. The engineer (Mike Walker) who designed the rifle discovered the problem shortly after production began and recommended a change in 1946 and actually drew up plans for a redesigned trigger in 1948. His plan was rejected by Remington management both times because of cost, about 5-6 cents per rifle. This was on the 721 and 722 rifles BTW. They use the same trigger as the 600 and 700 series. Basically any Remington bolt rifle except the 788 made from 1946-2007 use this trigger. A redesigned trigger was used starting in October 2006. But those rifles have been recalled because adhesive may have gotten inside the trigger group during assembly. There has been no recall as of yet on the 1946-2007 triggers.

The problem is the use of a "trigger connector" on those triggers. It is meant to provide a bit of extra leverage between the trigger and sear providing a smoother trigger pull. But the connector can move around inside the trigger group as the rifle is handled. In very rare cases the connector will bump the sear hard enough to cause it to release. When this happens the safety is the only thing holding the firing pin back. When you release the safety the gun fires with no trigger pull. No other gun company has a trigger connector style trigger, and none others have this problem.

The guns trigger pull weight has nothing to do with this flaw. You can have the trigger adjusted to 10 lbs and it won't prevent this from happening. Having a dirty trigger can increase the odds. Using WD-40 on a Remington trigger can gum up the internals and cause the connector to stick in place increasing the odds of an unintentional discharge. This is still a design flaw that can be prevented by using a trigger without a connector.

While the problem is real to be fair I want to put this into perspective. It is also very rare. The odds of things lining up just right are slim and if the trigger group is kept clean the odds are reduced further. But with 5-6 million rifles out there there will be incidents. I've seen documents showing about 130-140 rifles being returned to Remington in 1980 alone for this problem. Not a lot, unless it happens to you.

Any Remington with a Walker designed trigger that I own will get an aftermarket trigger. That is my advice.
 
I fault the parents that pointed a LOADED RIFLE AT THEIR CHILD.
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That isn't exactly true either. The child was unseen on the opposite side of a horse trailer. Mom was point the gun toward the ground on the other side of the trailer unloading her rifle. When she moved the safety to unlock the bolt the gun discharged. The bullet went though one side of a metal trailer, hit the trailer floor and deflected upward and went through another piece of metal striking her son. The bullet was a ricochet that was moving upward when it hit her son. There is no safe direction to have a unintentional discharge. Once bullets start bouncing around in metal there is no telling which direction they will go.
 
Well, I have seen several UDs into the backstop of a range that were perfectly safe, scary as hell, but safe.

As for whether or not in all the cases where people were hurt as a result of Remington triggers, Remington made the same arguments here about safety in at least a few of them. However, what they could not get away from was the fact that their guns were defective when sold, thereby creating an unsafe situation, contributing to the harming of humans.

So yeah, Remington tried to divert blame by noting how unsafe and careless people were, all the while attesting to the reliability and safety of the guns. That sort of went to hell in the Texas case where a guy hand blown off part of his own foot. The Remington expert on the stand was demonstrating the rifle to the court when it "fired" without him pulling the trigger. Remington lost the case.

I know of one with the issue. Pull the trigger; several seconds later it would fire! it got sent back. The problem is certainly real.
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That does appear to be a problem, but does not appear to be the case about which there have been so many lawsuits.

Here is a video of a rifle discharging after the safety was manipulated. It take several tries, but then it goes off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLQV7qFWeMs
 
There is no safe direction to have a unintentional discharge.
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If that is true then there is no safe direction to ever fire a round, be it rifle, handgun or shotgun. Regardless of our intentions bullets travel where they will after they leave the barrel.
 
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Go to u-tube and search for Remington's reply. It at least gives you their side of the story and allegations. There are truths and questionable info in both pieces.
 
Saw the program when it aired. It was well publicized. We discussed it at length in 2010...
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DNS- I think this was a follow up to their 2010 piece. They were referring to the original investigation and reporting quite a bit.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I do think I will send my rifles to Remington and have new triggers installed.
 
The child was unseen on the opposite side of a horse trailer.
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well there I go being an ass again....... This was not mentioned in the documentary I watched, it just showed an all but empty field and said as the mother was unloaded the chambered round the rifle went off. Only watched the "Reckoning" video that is up now.

If that's case then geez, that's really something terrible. I cannot put fault on anybody for that, I would probably also believe I am in a safe direction in that situation.
 
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