CMP Service Rifle Rules - Scopes

K

kraigwy

New member
These are proposed rules being discussed by the CMP for their Service Rifle Matches.

Service Rifle:
1) The only alibis that will be permitted are range alibis (no fault of the shooter).

2) Optics will be allowed on rifles that weigh 11.5 lbs., total with optic installed. Optics will only be allowed on the AR platform. The optic maximum magnification will be 4.5 power. There will not be a separate category for optical sighted ARs.

3) No weight limit on iron sighted, non-optical sighted ARs, i.e. you can shoot the current configured service rifle just as it is with no weight restrictions.

4) Only .223/5.56 NATO will be allowed for ARs, .308/7.62 NATO for M14 platforms, .308/7.62 NATO or .30/06 for M1 Garands.

5) M-4 type stocks will be allowed on the AR platforms.
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As a long time High Power Shooter, (38 years to be exact) and getting my DR badge with iron sights on an M14, I hate to see this.

But in reality it makes sense. Service rifles are service rifles and our military do use scopes on their rifles now days.

Score are gonna go up, I'm sure, but 10% of the top shooters get points in Leg Matches regardless, The scores will just be higher then when I got my distinguished badge.

Things change and some call it progress. I'm still conflicted on this.

When I started shooting leg matches, you shot their ammo, shooting mats weren't allow and you had to load from the person (no laying your next mag on the ground).

Oh well, they still have the CMP GSM games, using as issued surplus rifles used prior to 1955. Guess I'll just stick with my Garands and Springfields.
 
Well, at least No 4 will knock out the M110 7.62 AR rooneyguns that you or Bart were sorry to see.
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Jim this affects the CMP rules, not the NRA. The NRA allows the M110, the CMP never has.

EIC, Presidents Matches etc are CMP games. The 800 Across the course matches are NRA.

They have different rules for their matches. However if rules conflict the CMP takes precedence.

But the National Matches include CMP and NRA matches.
 
Optics will only be allowed on the AR platform.
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I have seen plenty of pictures of troops with scoped M14, in Iraq or Afghanistan. This seems to me to have been written by an AR promoter. There ought to be a separate category for the scoped rifles, as having a scope is an amazing benefit at all ranges. I have friends who are XTC shooting scoped AR15 Spaceguns, they are doing much better than when they had to use irons.
 
Yeah scopes are put on M-14s, and M1 Garands.

But they were not issued to line companies with scopes. Snipers, DMs yes but no to infantry troops

However they are issuing M16/A4s to line units now. I think that's where the CMP is coming from.
 
Kraig, a friend of mine (a Service Rifle NRA High Master) told me about this proposed optics rule and my first impulse was dismay that they are changing the game, but he made two good points.

The first was that most Service Rifle shooters these days are old, like us. Yes we have some real good youngsters, but by and large the young people go for F-Class or "action" gun games like 3-gun, not Service Rifle. As we age our eyes go bad, but maybe our basic shooting skills are still good.

The second was that he has cataracts and something wrong with a retina, he can shoot real well with a scope but his iron sight scores have fallen off with his eyesight, and it should be a shooting contest, not a seeing contest. I know every bad shot I shoot is because of trigger control, not vision. So if he can continue to shoot the kind of (High Master) scores he has been shooting for years, but it takes using a scope to make up for his failing eyes, why not?
 
The NRA does change its rules to benefit the shooter. That's why they allow AR10s.

The CMP is about service rifle, or T. Roosevelt's idea that every citizen should be taught in the use of our servicer rifles.

Remember they are two different organizations, with different missions.

The CMP does change as does our service rifle, from restricting service rifle to the Krag, then Springfield, then M1s, M14s M16s M4 and now M16/M4s with glass because the military issues the M16/M4 with glasses.

Another difference is the NO SHOOTER ALIBIES. The NRA allows shooter alibies, the CMP doesn't.

Having said that, from what I've seen shooting both, the CMP GSM games attract an overall older set then the NRA.

Heck I'm 68 and I often feel like a youngster in some of the CMP games I shoot. I find the NRA HP crowd a bit younger.

We need to understand the NRA conducts its matches, the CMP conducts there. Sometimes the matches are combined. They have different rules and if the rules conflict, the CMP Rules take presence.

I believe the goal of most HP and other shooters is the Distinguished Rifle Badge. If one elects to chase that noble goal, then he should concentrate on CMP Rules as they conduct the EIC matches.

The CMP is required by law to conduct the National Matches, the NRA assist.
 
I too am conflicted by the new optics rules. I went Distinguished the hard way. '14' with issued ammo. Shooting irons was the real challenge. The restricted nature of the Service Rifle category was an important part of the event. I can understand a service rifle with electronics[ Eotech,etc ] on an M4 as it appears to be an infantry standard now. But a 4x scope seems out of place. The basic skills of iron sight marksmanship are being pushed aside.
On the other hand I see High Power shooting needing a stimulus to draw new shooters. If this helps increase the participation I guess it could be a good thing. I just think the elite status of DCM/CMP shooting is slipping away.
 
I heard some interesting comments today. It seems that the Marines played hardball with the CMP. They wanted 4x scopes allowed or they would not participate in the National Matches. Without the Marines the Army would also not play. Without the services there would be no National Matches.
I had a chance to handle a rifle legal under the new rules. The weight restriction made it difficult to hold steady in the standing position. The 4x scope did offer a good reference but it also exaggerated any movement because of the light weight. The highmaster who was shooting this rifle fired the same scores he usually posted. So after reflection I can see this as a definitive change although I doubt that it will make a major difference to the average shooter. Good shooting skills are still required. The scope may offer help for those with eye issues and irons sights.
I still like my'14' better.
 
That's difficult to understand. The National Matches consist of NRA Matches and CMP matches.

I really doubt the Marines will stay home and I'm certain the Army wont.

I don't keep track of the NRA Rules anymore. I understand they allow AR10s so people can be competitive in NRA Service Rifle Matches.

The CMP doesn't.

The CMP runs the EIC, matches, Presidents Matches and such. These are all service rifle matches going by the CMP's rules. Cant shoot AR10s in these.

The NRA 800s 'n such, have different rules, they allow the AR10s in their service rifle category.

The CMP only allows service rifles that are issued by todays troops (not special troops) plus past rifles (M14, M1s etc.)

I can see their reasoning.

Whether they participate or not, I believe the Army is suppose to conduct the SAFSs.

Also the AMU has a great working relationship with the CMP,

They arnt staying home nor do I believe the Marines will.

This bickering distracts from the CMP's mission of instruction US Citizens in the us of our military's weapons.

Makes me glad, that in my old age I've drifted toward the CMP's vintage rifle games. I shot NRA HP a long time. The CMP games are a more relaxed friendly sport.

That's probably why its growing and the NRA HP isn't (or at least not as fast)

Besides the CMP puts on a dern good feed at their games.
 
I should have described the rifle I handled in more detail. It was essentially an M4 in .223/556. Specialty handguards [can't remember the nomenclature] with 4x scope. More of a carbine then a full size rifle. It looks like a legal rifle can be assembled easily but a decent scope could double the cost.
Over the years the CMP have allowed lens inserts plus other sight options for those with eye issues plus they also retained the standing before the rapids. It tells me the core resisted the concept of making things easy, like the NRA, and wanted to remain an iron sight game in the traditional form. The service rifle has always been the tough nut to crack. Apparently the other pressures were greater.
I'm not opposed to change. I think input from the participants would have been a more positive maneuver.
 
I don't understand what the issue is. The plain and simple truth is things evolve and change. Besides, As long as you can add weights, and run a float tube under the hand guard, it isn't a TRUE service rifle anyway.

If were left up to me. I would allow your choice of STANDARD MILITARY IRONS, or the standard ACOG and no others. The only difference between the rifle you compete with and one issued to the grunts should be a civilian legal fire control group. Trigger pull weight should be the same as military issue. No weights, float tubes, stainless steel heavy match barrels or other such stuff. Matches would be shot with issued M55 ball ammunition through a gov profile chrome lined 7 twist barrel.

This is my idea of service rifle competition. I also understand that this is not the way its done. So I have to either get onboard or get out of the way. Either way,
occasional evolution and change don't bother me as long as I get to keep shooting.
 
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I heard some interesting comments today. It seems that the Marines played hardball with the CMP. They wanted 4x scopes allowed or they would not participate in the National Matches. Without the Marines the Army would also not play. Without the services there would be no National Matches.
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Should have told the Army and Marines to pack their toys and go home. The USMC has Camp Lejeune, the AMU Fort Benning. Let them go play in their own sandboxes and stay inside their own sandboxes.

The NRA contracts for Camp Perry from the Ohio National Guard. The NRA is paying all the bills, the state of Ohio provides the National Guard. The Federal Government, that is the Regular Army stopped providing funds for the National Matches back in 1968.

I suggest the CMP periodically kick the services off their Talladega range, or in time, as at Camp Perry, someone will forget that the services contribute almost nothing to the game.
 
Should have told the Army and Marines to pack their toys and go home. The USMC has Camp Lejeune, the AMU Fort Benning. Let them go play in their own sandboxes and stay inside their own sandboxes.

The NRA contracts for Camp Perry from the Ohio National Guard. The NRA is paying all the bills, the state of Ohio provides the National Guard. The Federal Government, that is the Regular Army stopped providing funds for the National Matches back in 1968.

I suggest the CMP periodically kick the services off their Talladega range, or in time, as at Camp Perry, someone will forget that the services contribute almost nothing to the game.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, said! where is the like button!
 
Interesting how "proposed rules being discussed" turned into "Kick the Army and USMC out!!!!"

If these rules are enacted, hopefully some of those guys who claim the M4 is more accurate than the M16 show up to compete. So far anyone shooting an M4 pattern rifle has had to compete in the "match" category as it doesn't qualify as a CMP service rifle configuration, maybe because it's a carbine?

But I would like to see a separate category for optic and iron site service rifle.

Jimro
 
No you misunderstand. When the big green team wants something, normally the NRA will give it too them. And that's a shame, the NRA and the Army had a very good relationship back in the day about 50/50. Not that anything happened but sense the Army dropped support for the National Matches the Army has gotten more and more from the NRA than the NRA from the Army.
 
I don't think I misunderstood.

Maybe a little history is in order.

When the "Army" dropped support for the National Matches it was a dictated move by Congress through the creation of the CMP Corporation and the redefining of support relationships. That was in 1996. Part of the peace dividend and Congress was cutting funding for the Army, so to keep the CMP going, and out of the Army budget, the CMP Corporation was chartered.

You could say that was one of the longer lasting effects of the Clinton administration, longer than the AWB at least. If you don't like it, call your Congress critter.

Anyways the law changed, and it doesn't make sense to blame the Army for changes in law.

Of course none of that has any bearing on whether the CMP enacts a rules change regarding irons versus optics for service rifle competition.

Jimro
 
This thread has taken an unnecessary turn. It was originally informational about an important future change in CMP Service Rifle. The question was whether scopes and irons should compete together or be separate categories. For 100 years high power shooting has been an iron sight game with the Service Rifle being limited by strict rules. NRA allows rifles that do not conform to those rules. Since DCM/CMP shooting is exclusively Service Rifle ,which has been traditionally iron sights, scopes create questions that need open discussions.
 
as noted above, for most of the last 100 or so years, the average soldier was not issued a rifle with a scope, that appears to have changed.

so separate the rifles. one class with optics, one class iron sights. if the rifle normally carried optics, then it competes that way, and likewise if iron sights, then it competes that way.

they can all shoot on the same line, but the scored are sorted out by rifle class.

similar to how IDPA is run, everyone shoots the same course, but scores are sorted by pistol type.

i'll bet the high scores are obtained by scoped rifles, thus demonstrating that that is a superior platform for accuracy.

no point in fighting, let everyone play with their favorite rifle.
 
While not germane to the CMP potential rules change, it is possible for a Servicemember to earn EIC points without shooting the CMP course of fire.

The original national match course was the Army qualification course. That is of course no longer the case. The "quickfire" and popup ranges killed that right off, because scoring became "hit/miss" instead of numbers and X count. Even the pistol course is different now, but for other reasons.

Right now a Soldier who competes in the All Army competition (EIC producing event) will not shoot neither the CMP nor NRA course of fire, but as of the 2015 match, no optics were allowed for All Army.

As a side note, I tried to get a modified NM pistol qualification course set up with the 25m Army alternate Pistol qual (using an E type with scoring rings to score the event) last year, but the Army Marksmanship Unit signed a memorandum of understanding with the National Guard Bureau and the CMP which dicated the course of fire for military EIC matches must be "combat oriented" with an approved course of fire (as approved by the AMU/NGB MOU). The 2015 All Army course of fire is the only approved Army EIC course of fire, it's actually easier for me to have the local rod and gun club put on a CMP course of fire than it is to go the Army route.

Blowing a Soldiers yearly allotment of training and qualification ammo on ONE EVENT is a non starter for any Infantry commander out there (there is no extra ammo in the STRAC for competition, only training and qualification). And yes, AR 350-66 requires the use of issued ammo for official competition.

Sorry for being long winded...

Jimro
 
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