So from my understanding, and without going into politics, the Democratic leaders were trying to shut down the 1911 deal with the CMP. So have these pistols been melted down or destroyed? Or are they still just sitting in a warehouse? Do you guys think with the new president we stand a better chance of seeing them hit the market? Again not trying to start a politics debate, but was just curious if the new POTUS may give us a better chance of seeing them. I had a Remington R1 1911 once. To be honest I didn't like it, but if given the chance to get a world war surplus 1911 for a non collector price I would pounce on the opportunity.
CMP 1911??
- Thread starter Mikef262
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Jim Watson
New member
The guns are apparently in a CMP warehouse.
The next administration is more likely to release them for sale than the last, if they should happen to notice the matter and if they care enough to fool with it. But $10,000,000 in surplus sales is small potatoes these days.
Prices for the ordinary guns, well worn or reworked, will likely be set at the low end of the market price at the time. Good deals but not great bargains.
The nice guns in excellent condition and/or less common variants will probably go on auction like the best of the Garands.
The next administration is more likely to release them for sale than the last, if they should happen to notice the matter and if they care enough to fool with it. But $10,000,000 in surplus sales is small potatoes these days.
Prices for the ordinary guns, well worn or reworked, will likely be set at the low end of the market price at the time. Good deals but not great bargains.
The nice guns in excellent condition and/or less common variants will probably go on auction like the best of the Garands.
So forgive my lack of knowledge in the process involved here, but if they are in a CMP warehouse does that not mean the CMP has possession, and therefore could sell them? Or are they still considered property of the Govt? How does that work as far as the CMP legally gaining ownership of them?
I heard a rumor where John McCain has initiated legislation to the 2017 Defense Appropriation Act to discontinue CMP sale of the M1911A1's.
Here is a bit of it: http://www.redstate.com/brandon_mor...cain-wants-destroy-govt-surplus-1911-pistols/
Here is a bit of it: http://www.redstate.com/brandon_mor...cain-wants-destroy-govt-surplus-1911-pistols/
Jim Watson
New member
The CMP apparently holds the guns, maybe to save the Army the storage expense, but they are not CMP property.
John McCain is politically a RINO and was in the Navy and the military is a strong believer in gun control.
John McCain is politically a RINO and was in the Navy and the military is a strong believer in gun control.
I believe the previous NDAA allowed the Secretary of the Army to transfer the 1911's. At the time the position was open and now has been filled by an Obama appointee. Im not sure if Trump can or will be appointing a new Sec. of the Army. I'm guessing the current one will not be releasing them any time soon. Republicans pushed for the Army to be required to transfer but they comprised at allowing them to be transferred.
I believe the law also required the CMP to get an FFL so the guns could be shipped to in-state FFL's and you have to meet your states handgun requirements in order to obtain one. I'd assume that process has started and won't be a hold up
As far as pricing goes the CMP is required to sell all firearms at current market prices. Everyone will be priced at "collector" prices. I believe he CMP director of operations stated prices will start around $1,000 and go up form there.
I believe the law also required the CMP to get an FFL so the guns could be shipped to in-state FFL's and you have to meet your states handgun requirements in order to obtain one. I'd assume that process has started and won't be a hold up
As far as pricing goes the CMP is required to sell all firearms at current market prices. Everyone will be priced at "collector" prices. I believe he CMP director of operations stated prices will start around $1,000 and go up form there.
BluRidgDav
New member
Agree that McCain is a RINO, and maybe he's also anti-gun. But, it might be that a gun manufacturer is paying/pulling his politician puppet strings in order to squash the CMP competition for market share. If thousands of us spend $1000+ for a CMP 1911, then we will have less money to buy a "new" pistol.
PolarFBear
New member
I like the idea of letting the CMP 1911's out of the "bag" but I would NOT want one. If they are like the ones with which I was familiar they are worn to the point of failure. Every .45 I had in my armory (late 1984) was "red-tagged" DANGER do not use. Of course, aboard a ship, you use what you have. My GM's did separate the ones out without obvious frame cracks for FAM fire and security watches. For what they may price these 50 decade, 4 war, worn-outs; I'll pass. Everything comes to the point of retirement.
What would the annual limit be on 1911s?
Buy a dozen of them and put as many as possible back together with the 'correct parts' and sell them to collectors for 5 times as much?
Decades ago folks were buying torch cut M1 receivers at scrap pricing, welding them together and putting on the parts kits they had to make collector M1 Garands. Then the DMC only had one gun for you for your lifetime.
Buy a dozen of them and put as many as possible back together with the 'correct parts' and sell them to collectors for 5 times as much?
Decades ago folks were buying torch cut M1 receivers at scrap pricing, welding them together and putting on the parts kits they had to make collector M1 Garands. Then the DMC only had one gun for you for your lifetime.
We don't know the condition of the pistols turned over to CMP. Many of us would like one simply because it was the service pistol we carried while in the military. Also, many of us are like these pistols since we are old and worn out. I was assigned a different M1911A1 at each different duty station. None of the ones I carried were dangerous or worn out. In Nam, I carried a Remington Rand.
I suspect if the CMP M1911A1's ever become available for sale, they will of been gone over by the armorers at CMP. This is the procedure used for the carbines and rifles they have sold in the past and today. The rumors I have heard indicate CMP will most likely grade the pistols and sell them at a price based upon condition. The best of the bunch would be auctioned.
Over the years, a decent M1911/M1911A1 to include the ones that have undergone Depot refurb have increased in value. I dare say the Colt M1911 I acquired on July 4, 2011 has doubled in value since a little over 5 years ago. It does have all correct matching parts. There are only so many of these old war horses remaining. In a year and 10 months, my example will be a hundred years old. (manufactured Oct. 11, 1918)
I suspect if the CMP M1911A1's ever become available for sale, they will of been gone over by the armorers at CMP. This is the procedure used for the carbines and rifles they have sold in the past and today. The rumors I have heard indicate CMP will most likely grade the pistols and sell them at a price based upon condition. The best of the bunch would be auctioned.
Over the years, a decent M1911/M1911A1 to include the ones that have undergone Depot refurb have increased in value. I dare say the Colt M1911 I acquired on July 4, 2011 has doubled in value since a little over 5 years ago. It does have all correct matching parts. There are only so many of these old war horses remaining. In a year and 10 months, my example will be a hundred years old. (manufactured Oct. 11, 1918)
Attachments
Sgt Pepper
New member
Review the current text of the proposed legislation here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th...Index=1#toc-H21DC36486B7A42C5AE90D5B279CCBA96.
See Section 1092. It seems that rather than eliminating the CMP 1911 program as some claim McCain has proposed, the proposal seeks to do away with the 10,000 pistols per year limitation.
See Section 1092. It seems that rather than eliminating the CMP 1911 program as some claim McCain has proposed, the proposal seeks to do away with the 10,000 pistols per year limitation.
First off, "mismatched" is a misnomer, when applied to GI .45s. Unlike a Luger, and many other European arms there are no numbers on the parts to "match". There is only the serial number on the frame.
From the adoption of the 1911A1 in the early 20s, SOP has been that all are to be maintained with 1911A1 parts, as needed. SO, there is only "as originally issued" configuration, and "service configuration".
Some of the guns never had any repairs done. Some did. You might find an original 1911 with all original parts. You might find one with some 1911A1 parts. Both are equally correct for "service condition" guns.
The attraction is simple, though it doesn't apply to everyone. These guns aren't ".45s like our troops carried", they ARE the .45s our troops carried. They are a functional piece of American history
That means something to some people, if not to you.
It doesn't mean they are worth $1000 to me, though. I won't be buying one. (already had a 1943 Remington Rand, bought for $300 back in the 80s, and sold for $800 after Saving Private Ryan came out, to a guy who just had to have a "real GI gun"
). I wonder if the red tagging of .45s at that time might have been more political than actual unsafe guns. 84 was when we adopted the 9mm and the Beretta to go with it. Not saying there weren't worn out (cracked frames) unsafe guns, just that having ALL of them tagged out seems more like an officer's decision of the "best thing to do" rather than an entire ships compliment of pistols ALL being unsafely worn out at the same time.
Or it might just be that you Navy types did something more with them than the Army ones I saw (chipped paint, maybe?
)I was a Small Arms Repairman, and inspector, and during my "illustrious military career" (I got out in late 78) I inspected the arms of two different Army divisions. Never saw a single unserviceable .45. Period. I inspected HUNDREDS of them. Only 3 ever came to my shop for repair, and all of them were for the sights. One had a front sight that came off, the other two had bashed rear sights from being dropped on concrete or steel surfaces.
Personally, I rather doubt any manufacturer is pulling any political strings to keep the guns from being released. Sure, it might seem like they would, to keep their prices and demand up, BUT there is another side to the CMP .45s that I'm sure they have also considered.
And that is, that, in the long run, CMP .45s would be a benefit to their business. Short term, sure, there will be a market bubble, but long term, there will be a lot of buyers, who get a "worn out" GI .45, and a little later want a "better" one, something newer with better features, which will be good for the maker's business. After they get familiar with their historical collectable, there's a good chance many will buy something new for everyday use and carry.
Be interesting to see what price they might sell them at. Could be you double or triple the price of them by just walking out the door with one.
A person could keep and shoot one for their own. Or use a good condition frame and slide to build up whatever type piece they want. Solid base for a custom piece.
The last 1911s delivered to the Army and Navy (setting aside a small number to the Marines) were shipped in 1948. They went through Korea, Vietnam and everything else in between for the next almost 4 decades. Built and rebuilt till 1986 when the M9 went online.
tipoc
A person could keep and shoot one for their own. Or use a good condition frame and slide to build up whatever type piece they want. Solid base for a custom piece.
The last 1911s delivered to the Army and Navy (setting aside a small number to the Marines) were shipped in 1948. They went through Korea, Vietnam and everything else in between for the next almost 4 decades. Built and rebuilt till 1986 when the M9 went online.
tipoc
The M1911s ARE at the CMP Warehouses, I saw several crate of them when touring the complex while attending the Advanced Maint. Class a year ago last Aug.
Congress in past defense spending bills authorized the Sec. of Defense to allow the CMP to sell 10K per year to US citizens. So far the Sec. of Defense has not made such authorization. What Mattas will do is anyone's guess.
44 AMP is correct. Since Springfield Armory had been making guns and Eli Whitney got involved (assembly line manufacturing) U.S. Military arms have been made so was broken parts can be replaced instead of replacing the whole gun. The parts are made to be interchangeable.
I have a book, a history of "The Springfield armory 1890-1948". It covers orders throughout those years, each time a weapon system (rifles and pistols) was made, the order included parts for that weapons system.
My first M1 (from the DCM in 1980) was a "original", made in Aug 1941. It was original alright, an original M1, not original Springfield, It had been rebuilt and has a post war Marlin Barrel.
My collection of surplus rifles cover the 50-70 trapdoor, 45-70 trapdoor, Krag, M1917 (which the SA didn't have anything to do with), M1903a3, two Garand's, MI Carbine, M1903A4, M1911a1. They are original models but have parts from different Manufactures.
My M1911a1 has a colt frame, and Union Switch and Single Co, Slide, who knows who made the other parts.
In the Advanced Maint. Class I built a M1, I picked a 5 Mil. SA action, and then picked parts that fit best, wanting a shooter for the CMP matches. Cant say its original all 5 mil number SA parts, but it is an original M1 Garand, as Mr. Garand designed it.
Back to the CMP's 1911s, again, when and if they are released, and the price, is anyone's guess.
The authorization for the Sec. of Defense to release them is there, the 1911s are at the CMP, but I'm sure Gen. Mattas has other things on his mind right now, for one, he hasn't even been confirmed.
The CMP wants to sell them, that's how they get their funding, plus those crates, as I have seen my self, take up a lot of space.
Though the CMP stores them, they are the property of the Army. Just like many of the M1s. I was shown pallets of M1s, the army has use for some of them, but not the ability to maintain them. Every time the Army needs M1s, the CMP armors check and repair if necessary the Army's gun. Per agreement, for every gun the CMP gets ready for the army, they get one for their sales.
The CMP will not let a gun leave their facility without inspecting, and repairing if necessary. This all depends on the work load of the CMP staff. So if and when the SofD gives the go ahead, it will still take time for the CMP armors to go over each and every one, making sure any pistol they sell is in safe firing order.
If they are put up for sale, and I'm still around, I may buy one, just because I've run out of other ideas for my USGI Surplus weapon collection.
I keep hearing the $1000 price banted about but never saw anything official, I don't think the CMP knows right now what the sales price will be.
But remember, the CMPs mission is to provided marksmanship training to US Citizens. Since they took over from the Army in 1996, they receive no federal funds, all their funding is from sales.
Congress in past defense spending bills authorized the Sec. of Defense to allow the CMP to sell 10K per year to US citizens. So far the Sec. of Defense has not made such authorization. What Mattas will do is anyone's guess.
44 AMP is correct. Since Springfield Armory had been making guns and Eli Whitney got involved (assembly line manufacturing) U.S. Military arms have been made so was broken parts can be replaced instead of replacing the whole gun. The parts are made to be interchangeable.
I have a book, a history of "The Springfield armory 1890-1948". It covers orders throughout those years, each time a weapon system (rifles and pistols) was made, the order included parts for that weapons system.
My first M1 (from the DCM in 1980) was a "original", made in Aug 1941. It was original alright, an original M1, not original Springfield, It had been rebuilt and has a post war Marlin Barrel.
My collection of surplus rifles cover the 50-70 trapdoor, 45-70 trapdoor, Krag, M1917 (which the SA didn't have anything to do with), M1903a3, two Garand's, MI Carbine, M1903A4, M1911a1. They are original models but have parts from different Manufactures.
My M1911a1 has a colt frame, and Union Switch and Single Co, Slide, who knows who made the other parts.
In the Advanced Maint. Class I built a M1, I picked a 5 Mil. SA action, and then picked parts that fit best, wanting a shooter for the CMP matches. Cant say its original all 5 mil number SA parts, but it is an original M1 Garand, as Mr. Garand designed it.
Back to the CMP's 1911s, again, when and if they are released, and the price, is anyone's guess.
The authorization for the Sec. of Defense to release them is there, the 1911s are at the CMP, but I'm sure Gen. Mattas has other things on his mind right now, for one, he hasn't even been confirmed.
The CMP wants to sell them, that's how they get their funding, plus those crates, as I have seen my self, take up a lot of space.
Though the CMP stores them, they are the property of the Army. Just like many of the M1s. I was shown pallets of M1s, the army has use for some of them, but not the ability to maintain them. Every time the Army needs M1s, the CMP armors check and repair if necessary the Army's gun. Per agreement, for every gun the CMP gets ready for the army, they get one for their sales.
The CMP will not let a gun leave their facility without inspecting, and repairing if necessary. This all depends on the work load of the CMP staff. So if and when the SofD gives the go ahead, it will still take time for the CMP armors to go over each and every one, making sure any pistol they sell is in safe firing order.
If they are put up for sale, and I'm still around, I may buy one, just because I've run out of other ideas for my USGI Surplus weapon collection.
I keep hearing the $1000 price banted about but never saw anything official, I don't think the CMP knows right now what the sales price will be.
But remember, the CMPs mission is to provided marksmanship training to US Citizens. Since they took over from the Army in 1996, they receive no federal funds, all their funding is from sales.
I do not disagree with the points made by 44 AMP and by kraigwy. The components of the M1911 and the components of the M1911A1 were built to military specifications and build-to-print drawings. Not all parts of the M1911 are the same as all the parts to the M1911A1.
There are ways of determining if certain parts like slides, barrels, grips and some other parts were the original types for a certain make or era of pistols. The Colt pistols had four different slides that I am aware of such as the location of the Rampant Colt on the left side of the slide. One had the pony to the rear of the slide serrations and one had the pony between the patent data/Colt address and the slide serrations. There are other differences like whether the pony was within a circle or not. Then there was the shape of the recoil spring housing. These differences are based upon serial number ranges. There is differences in print styles and sizes. There are different marking on barrels and the list can go on and on. Then as kraigwy mentioned, a dead give away is when you find one with a colt frame and a an Ithaca slide. Before 1918, the Colt M1911's were blued in a more difficult and tedious manner requiring additional production time per pistol. In 1918, a different process was used which left the pistols with a black look thus referred to as the "Black Army" (not official nomenclature). Different shapes to hammers, types of recoil spring guides, firing pin stops, checkering styles on hammer, grip checkering and the list can go on an on. Parts that have been interchanges and swapped with often be noticeable by the amount of wear and the coloration of the bluing. Those things stand out to an expert appraiser.
Here is a link to a great web-site for research: http://coolgunsite.com/
You might also want to find a copy of Charles W. Clawson's publication "Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1911 and 1911A1".
There are ways of determining if certain parts like slides, barrels, grips and some other parts were the original types for a certain make or era of pistols. The Colt pistols had four different slides that I am aware of such as the location of the Rampant Colt on the left side of the slide. One had the pony to the rear of the slide serrations and one had the pony between the patent data/Colt address and the slide serrations. There are other differences like whether the pony was within a circle or not. Then there was the shape of the recoil spring housing. These differences are based upon serial number ranges. There is differences in print styles and sizes. There are different marking on barrels and the list can go on and on. Then as kraigwy mentioned, a dead give away is when you find one with a colt frame and a an Ithaca slide. Before 1918, the Colt M1911's were blued in a more difficult and tedious manner requiring additional production time per pistol. In 1918, a different process was used which left the pistols with a black look thus referred to as the "Black Army" (not official nomenclature). Different shapes to hammers, types of recoil spring guides, firing pin stops, checkering styles on hammer, grip checkering and the list can go on an on. Parts that have been interchanges and swapped with often be noticeable by the amount of wear and the coloration of the bluing. Those things stand out to an expert appraiser.
Here is a link to a great web-site for research: http://coolgunsite.com/
You might also want to find a copy of Charles W. Clawson's publication "Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1911 and 1911A1".
Aguila Blanca
Staff
kraigwy said:
That there's a rare piece, Captain. Better hold onto it. It must be worth at least $50,000 being a one-of-a-kind and all.
