Clip Fed Autos

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PreserveFreedom

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I know many here have stripper clip fed semi-auto rifles with fixed interior box magazines. The first one that comes to mind is the M1 Garand. From your personal experience, what are the pros/cons of a stripper clip reloading system? I am almost positive that my next rifle will be an M1 Garand. I just develop a pool of drool when y'all talk about yours. Without actual experience, the biggest "pro" that I can think of with a stripper clip system is that the clips are dirt cheap, compared to detatchable box magazines. One could undoubtably afford to have enough clips for all of their ammo that they were carrying into the field. Anything else, good or bad? Thanx!
 
Hmm...I have thought of answers to some of my own questions.

Pro's of Stripper Clips:
Price compared to detatchable box bagazines
Can be left loaded indefinately with no wear to springs
Less weight compared to loaded box magazines of same caliber

Con's of Stripper Clips:
Inability to perform a "tactical reload" in many cases (top off mag)
Empties can fling aside after last round and be lost (can be offset by low cost)
A poor spring in the box bagazine will not be improved with a simple reload

What else am I missing? :confused:
 
At the risk of soundling like a terminology nitpick, the Garand does not use stripper clips. It uses en-bloc clips, which remain in the weapon with the ammo until the ammunition is expended. The en-bloc clips eject with the last round. The Garand uses that system, as does the Austro-Hungarian Steyr Mannlicher straight-pull bolt action rifle and a few other select systems.

A stripper clip just holds the rounds for simultaneous insertion into the gun, and is discarded after the loading process.

Most bolt-action rifles can be loaded from stripper clips specific to the weapon; en-bloc clip systems are rare. The tactical disadvantage of the en-bloc system is an inability to top off the magazine (as stated), and a dependence of the feeding mechanism on the clip itself, without which the rifle turns into a single-shot weapon.

Stripper clip-fed weapons can generally be topped off, as well as reloaded with loose rounds sans stripper clip.

Advantage of the en-bloc clip is a faster reload, but that's about it. That said, the Garand system is certainly battle-proven, and it works out well as long as one is aware of the tactical limitations of an en-bloc loading system.
 
I had a feeling there was a difference. Thanks for clarifying. :)
 
Another disadvantage is kachink! (sound of en bloc clip being flung free). Now, some will say no threat will be close enough to hear this. I think of WW II GI's fighting in the Pacific Theater, and I still don't like it.

Pay your money, and take your chances. :) An M1 is worth getting for purely historical purposes, anyway. (Keep your thumb free of the action!)
 
That distinctive sound of the clip being ejected is reputed by some to be a liability, because it serves as a signal to the enemy that the rifle is empty and the shooter is reloading. However, if you've ever seen a real veteran user of the M1 reload the rifle, you'd know that that theory is incorrect. I'm talking "blink-of-an-eye" here, faster than any detachable magazine reload. This reload speed would also, in my mind, obviate the need for tactical reloads in most situations.

Another advantage to en-bloc clips is that the cartridge configuration (two rows of four rounds each) makes them easy to stage in various places on your person while in combat. You can stick clips in your waistband, on the rifle sling, and on web gear, all held there by the tension of the clip, so that a reload easily comes to hand.

To my (purely theoretical) perception, the only real drawback to the Garand as a battle weapon is the sheer weight of the rifle and the ammo.
 
My favorite upside:

The fact that a clip-fed doesn't protrude as far as a magazine. I've noticed this firing an SKS vs. an M16. The SKS allows me to dig my body as low as I like into the dirt, but with an M16 you have to lie the weapon flat to fire from full prone, in which case you can't really use the sights, or you can prop yourself a full foot or more higher up to use the weapon properly, thus making your noggin a more prominent target on the landscape, plus the fact that your 30rd magazine is gouging itself into the mud.

The weight and length of the Garand can be improved to some degree by some custom work. Myself, I've been covetting the Farnam Defensive Rifle

http://www.gunwork.com/PAGES/prods.htm

It's a bit pricey for my taste at this point in time, but man is it slick. They claim to take 4 inches and 3 pounds off standard M1 size. I'd ditch the scope though, stick with aperture sights.
 
Hi, guys,

Craigz is correct and I have never known anyone who used the M1 in combat that mentioned the clip "ping". Only rear area dips and kids who read too much believe that nonsense.

The usual story is that an enemy soldier heard the "ping" of the clip (over the noise of the battlefield), fixed bayonet (it's always a bayonet), charged across a hundred (or two hundred or three hundred) yards of battlefied and bayonetted the poor GI in his foxhole while he was trying to reload (and the other GIs just watched).

All of this is so obviously garbage that I am surprised that any 6 year old could believe it, but a lot of otherwise intelligent folks seem to.

I am reminded of the story once common in this area where there was a POW camp for Germans during WWII. The story is that there are tons of German arms buried in the area that were "taken from the German prisoners." Sure. The U.S. army captured the Germans in France or Germany, marched them to ports, put them on ships, took them to Baltimore, put them on trains, offloaded them at the camp, and THEN disarmed them!?!?!?!?!?

Yet, some old timers will swear it is true.

Jim
 
Jim,

Just an OUTSIDE chance that it's true...

But not because the POWs had weapons...

During WW II many divisions maintained stocks of captured German/Japanese weapons for their own trophy cases back home.

Some were quite enormous, some weren't.

In the case of the 28th Division, Pennsylvania's "Bloody Bucket" division, thousands of German arms came back with the division. Most eventually ended up going to the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, where they were split between the PA Military Museum and the main museum in Harrisburg.

It's possible that other divisions did the same thing, but that they destroyed and buried their surplus weaponry.

Yeah, I don't believe it either. Why bury them when you can melt them down.


Preserve,

There were two styles of en-bloc, or packet, clips that saw widespread military use -- the Garand system, in which the clip was ejected through the top of the gun when it was empty, and the Mannlicher style, which dropped out a port in the bottom of the magazine when it was empty.

The French, Italians were the two most common users of the Mannlicher-type clip.

The French, wonderous strategic thinkers that they were, even made a carbine with a clip that held THREE rounds!

Good grief.
 
PING! An urban legend that just won't die!

Here is what Bruce Canfield has to say on the subject of "Ping"

An Enduring "Urban Legend"
by Bruce Canfield

Everyone is familiar with "Urban Legends" which are fantasy stories that have been told and re-told so many times that some people believe them to be true. One such story has plagued the M1 Garand rifle since at least the time of its adoption in 1936. The "legend" involves the distinctive "pinging" noise that the empty M1 clip makes when it is ejected from the rifle. When the M1 was adopted, some of its critics claimed that this was a serious defect in the rifle because an enemy could hear the "ping" and would know that the rifle was empty. This "defect" of the M1 was the cause of many barracks "bull sessions" during World War II and a number of new recruits were undoubtedly frightened. Even today, the story is repeated in some books and articles. The "legend" involves U.S. soldiers who were killed because the enemy was alerted that their M1 rifle was empty due to the noise of the ejected clip. While there are multiple variations to the story, they basically involve an American GI with an empty Garand rifle who was killed when the wily Japanese (or in some stories, German)heard the sound of the ejected clip, charged cross the open ground and bayoneted (or shot) the hapless "dogface" while he fumbled with trying to reload his empty Garand. An interesting twist on this "legend" involves U.S. soldiers turning the tables on their devious enemies by dropping empty M1 clips on the ground to simulate the noise of an ejected clip and then mowing the enemy down when they foolishly revealed their positions to the Americans with supposedly empty rifles. A variation of the story stated that members of the U.S. Army First Special Service Force who were armed with M1941 Johnson Light Machine Guns would fire eight rounds from their weapons, throw empty M1 clips on the ground and then use the remaining 12 rounds in their magazines to kill the Germans who were fooled by this bit of clever deception. Such stories were not limited to World War II and variants of the "legend" are attributed to the Korean War when the Red Chinese troops heard the ejected M1 clips hitting the frozen ground and then killing the Americans with unloaded Garands.

Despite this "legend" being around for over six decades, there is not one documented instance where an American soldier was killed because of a noisy ejected M1 clip. Repeat, there is NO official confirmation of such an incident. If one thinks about it, such a scenario is actually quite absurd. Anyone who has been in combat will verify that a battlefield is a noisy and confusing place. To think that an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip several hundred (or even several dozen) yards away over the din of explosions and the racket of many weapons being fired is not logical. Even in the case of a close-range firefight, the scenario does not hold water. Even if an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip, he really couldn't do much in the brief period that it takes to reload an M1. A GI with a little practice and a lot of incentive can reload a Garand in just a few seconds. Even Carl Lewis couldn't sprint very far before he would be faced with an angry American with a fresh eight-round clip. Also, even if the GI with the empty Garand couldn't reload fast enough, there would be fellow squad members around with loaded BARs, carbines, M1919A4 machine guns, Thompson submachine guns and other weapons who would be only too happy to send the enemy to their fate in the hereafter.

Some British authors who never used the M1 rifle have published this "defect" of the M1 rifle in numerous books and articles. Even some American writers who should know better have repeated the same bit of fantasy. While the M1 rifle was not perfect, the fact that its ejected clip makes a "pinging" noise when it is ejected is not, by any means, a flaw. If anyone has even a single documented instance of an American being killed due to this reason, I would be quite interested in hearing about it. I recall as a kid in the late '50s and early 60's reading "war stories" in the men's magazines of the day while waiting for a haircut at the barber shop. At the time, I had never handled (let alone fired) a M1 rifle and such tales seemed reasonable. However, to anyone with a knowledge of military small arms and combat situations, it should be readily apparent that such stories clearly fall into the "Urban Legend" category. Hopefully, someday, this piece of fantasy will die a natural death. In the meantime,if you hear a variation of the story being repeated, politely ask what documentation they have to support it. You will likely hear that they "read it somewhere" or their brother-in-law's next door neighbor knew somebody in WWII who was killed because of a noisy M1 clip. That ain't documentation!
 
Of course, the best solution is to have the option to do either like the M14.

I'm kind of surprised that so few modern clip-fed rifles allow loading fron a stripper clip.
 
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