Clearances on Hi Power Slide to Frame fit
- Thread starter Tinbucket
- Start date
To my knowledge pinching a High Power frame does not work the same as a. 1911 and a slide can quickly be reduced to scrap. I would search out the gunsmiths who specialize in HP's for information before applying tightening suggestions given on a forum. I have a half dozen HP's including a MkII and Mk III from Israel, Inglis, commercial, Belgium Army issue from before WWII and none are so loose as to need a tighter fit.
Tinbucket,
I'm always a bit dubious about what people mean by accuracy, especially from a handgun. My standard I'm sure is different than someone else's or yours.
I guess I'm more tolerant than others, or some, because I see a handgun mostly as a defensive weapon meant for close ranges. And by close ranges I mean under 20 yards and not in any context of bullseye shooting.
I'm always a bit dubious about what people mean by accuracy, especially from a handgun. My standard I'm sure is different than someone else's or yours.
I guess I'm more tolerant than others, or some, because I see a handgun mostly as a defensive weapon meant for close ranges. And by close ranges I mean under 20 yards and not in any context of bullseye shooting.
MandolinMan
New member
Are you having accuracy issues with your Hi Power? I just ask because some slide to frame looseness does not necessary imply poor accuracy. I have an older german Sig that appears to have a very high round count that literally rattles when you shake it. But its just as accurate as any of my others. But, it is somewhat annoying. My solution was to get some heavy gun grease and coat the slide rails. Almost eliminated all tha rattle!
I'm attaching here a useful piece on this question from the Dean of Hi-Powers Stephen Camp and his website.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Accuracy.htm
When it comes to slide to frame fit the P35 does not benefit from a tightened slide as well as the 1911 does. This is in part because the Hi-Power does not have the length of rails that the 1911 does so the contact surface is much less.
So I'll ask how does it shoot and what leads you to think your piece needs work to improve it's accuracy?
tipoc
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Accuracy.htm
When it comes to slide to frame fit the P35 does not benefit from a tightened slide as well as the 1911 does. This is in part because the Hi-Power does not have the length of rails that the 1911 does so the contact surface is much less.
So I'll ask how does it shoot and what leads you to think your piece needs work to improve it's accuracy?
tipoc
g.willikers
New member
Frame to slide fit probably isn't as important as imagined.
Check out most of the polymer framed guns.
Talk about loose fit, but they shoot pretty good in spite of it.
There's lots of other considerations that make a pistol accurate or not.
I have a 1911 that not only rattles, but the rails on the frame were cut badly.
Lots of side gap.
But it's a tack driver and was my match gun for many years.
Afterwards, it became a match loaner and never got any complaints.
Like the others said, see how it shoots before getting excited about it.
Check out most of the polymer framed guns.
Talk about loose fit, but they shoot pretty good in spite of it.
There's lots of other considerations that make a pistol accurate or not.
I have a 1911 that not only rattles, but the rails on the frame were cut badly.
Lots of side gap.
But it's a tack driver and was my match gun for many years.
Afterwards, it became a match loaner and never got any complaints.
Like the others said, see how it shoots before getting excited about it.
Last edited:
Walt Sherrill
New member
If you were using a frame-mounted optical system, a loose slide might not give you the best accuracy. Ditto, if you were doing a Ransom Rest test (where the sights aren't aligned with each shot).
As long as you're using the sights on the slide with each shot, and the barrel and slide lock up consistently with each shot, consistent lockup of barrel and slide is far more important than slide to frame fit.
As long as you're using the sights on the slide with each shot, and the barrel and slide lock up consistently with each shot, consistent lockup of barrel and slide is far more important than slide to frame fit.
Absolutely....the real question is: how's it shoot with GOOD ammunition. Forget about the side to side movement...if it locks up in the same place each shot, it'll do well. Remember that 9mm ammunition has never had any reputation for the accuracy that's relatively easy to achieve with .45 ACP. Rod
Tinbucket, I've been a Hi Power fan for many years, and have owned probably more than my share. While I personally prefer a closely fitted slide and frame, all of my Hi Powers have had some of the play in the slide/frame fit you describe. I have read for years that slide tightening is not as desireable on Hi Powers as it might be on 1911s,etc. One source indicated that shooters in Canada had some experience with slide/frame fit tightening on Hi Powers and that tighter fit did not last. In general, my T and C- series Hi Powers had a slightly looser fit than the later "Assembled in Portugal" MKIII Hi Powers. They most all shot well, with the MKIII series having the accuracy edge within my humble experience. My GP Comp. Hi Power has this play, but shoots very well. FWIW, fitting a Bar-Sto barrel will remove most, or all, play when in battery and the pistol will shoot very well with no slide/frame tightening at all.....ymmv
The BHP (mostly Inglis-made) was the Canadian service pistol for many years and armorers turned them into very good competition guns. IIRC, the main emphasis on slide-frame fit was in achieving a good trigger pull, due to the fact that (unlike the 1911 and other pistols that have the trigger bar and hammer in a fixed relationship), the BHP has its hammer and sear at the end of a chain that can allow the trigger pull to vary widely, including the situation where the trigger is actually "lifting" the slide. It is that varying connection that makes a good trigger pull on a BHP quite difficult to achieve.
Jim
Jim
Let me just add a little to James K's fine response.
The BHP design connects the trigger (located to the front of the magazine) to the sear (located to the rear of the magazine) by the movement of a lever up in the slide going over the magazine.
Maybe it was a way to get around the double-stack magazine, which was new with that gun, to keep the frame slim.
Maybe it was a way to get around Colt 1911 patents which were still active.
Whatever the reason, it was a unique design which hasn't been used again, anywhere, that I know of.
The BHP design connects the trigger (located to the front of the magazine) to the sear (located to the rear of the magazine) by the movement of a lever up in the slide going over the magazine.
Maybe it was a way to get around the double-stack magazine, which was new with that gun, to keep the frame slim.
Maybe it was a way to get around Colt 1911 patents which were still active.
Whatever the reason, it was a unique design which hasn't been used again, anywhere, that I know of.
The normal out the box BHP can usually do about 2-4" groups at 25 yards with ammo it likes. That can be shrunk some if the shooter is capable. Some work on the trigger and decent sights that the shooter can see make a difference.
A group about the size of your fist is normal at 10 or 15 yards.
The BHP can certainly place a round in a fellas chest at 50 yards but it generally is not a particularly good bullseye gun.
From the little that you are saying it seems either your gun has a mechanical issue or it's more that you are new to this gun and find it odd still.
tipoc
"...accuracy would be a lot better with..." It have a match barrel(correctly fitted), trigger job(with the mag safety out) and good sights? The bushing correct? There's a lot more to it than the slide fit.
"...pinching a High Power frame does not work the same..." Pinching a 1911A1 frame doesn't work well unless it's done correctly either. A guy did one with a bench vise long ago and it stopped working altogether.
The Canadian service pistol was an Inglis and nobody else's. Our weapons techs wouldn't have taken out the daft mag safety for any reason. Or fiddled with 'em to make 'em match pistols. Cost too much.
"...pinching a High Power frame does not work the same..." Pinching a 1911A1 frame doesn't work well unless it's done correctly either. A guy did one with a bench vise long ago and it stopped working altogether.
The Canadian service pistol was an Inglis and nobody else's. Our weapons techs wouldn't have taken out the daft mag safety for any reason. Or fiddled with 'em to make 'em match pistols. Cost too much.
"The Canadian service pistol was an Inglis and nobody else's " Britian also adopted the Inglis pistol in WWII and later supplimented them with FN High Powers, some of their Inglis and FN's were recelently replaced with a new pistol (Glock I believe). Inglis pistols were also supplied to other Nation's units operating out of Britian or in the field under English command but they were not officially their " service pistol" simply weapons provided by other powers.
g.willikers
New member
And then there's the ammo.
A friend was complaining about his HP accuracy and decided to treat it like a .22rimfire.
You know, try all kinds of ammo thinking maybe some would be better than others.
Considering the variety of 9mm ammo manufacturers on the market, it seemed a logical thing to do.
Sure enough he found ammo that proved to be the cure.
You might take that approach, too.
A friend was complaining about his HP accuracy and decided to treat it like a .22rimfire.
You know, try all kinds of ammo thinking maybe some would be better than others.
Considering the variety of 9mm ammo manufacturers on the market, it seemed a logical thing to do.
Sure enough he found ammo that proved to be the cure.
You might take that approach, too.
The BHP sear bar system was (AFAIK), not used in any other pistol. The original design used a straight drive firing pin, not a hammer, and the system went well with that mechanism. When Saive changed the design to use a hammer, the sear system was retained, probably for the simple reason that it worked and a change would have required a redesign which would not have been available in time to compete in the French tests.
The system works, but at a cost in terms of complexity and the sacrifice of a better trigger pull.
As to Canadian use, I have seen information that indicates Canadian military technicians did some rather considerable work on match pistols for the CAF, though not to anywhere near the extent done to the M1911/A1 by civilian gunsmiths in the U.S. AFAIK, the BHP is no longer in military service in Canada or the UK, having been replaced by the SIG 225/226 (adoption of a new pistol is "in the works" but last I heard there has been no decision made).
Jim
The system works, but at a cost in terms of complexity and the sacrifice of a better trigger pull.
As to Canadian use, I have seen information that indicates Canadian military technicians did some rather considerable work on match pistols for the CAF, though not to anywhere near the extent done to the M1911/A1 by civilian gunsmiths in the U.S. AFAIK, the BHP is no longer in military service in Canada or the UK, having been replaced by the SIG 225/226 (adoption of a new pistol is "in the works" but last I heard there has been no decision made).
Jim
Walt Sherrill
New member
James K said:
The British Army switched to the Glock 17. Here's a link explaining the British Army's conversion. http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/23797.aspx
The Canadian Army is still using the BHP-- but I don't know about the other parts of the Canadian military. If you click on the "Weapons" link at the top of the page, there's no mention of SIGs -- just the Hi-Power. (Special units might use other handguns.) http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/weapons/browning-9mm-pistol.page