Cleaning Corrosive Primer Salts, What Am I Doing Wrong?

Z

ZRTaylor

New member
Friendly greetings everyone.

I've been enjoying my Mosin with some surplus ammo I picked up at a pretty good price. I've been trying to be careful and make sure I clean her properly, and promptly, after every outing. However, my dutiful care-taking doesn't seem to be having much effect.

After every trip to the range I run many, many patches of Hoppes down the barrel, until they stop coming back particularly dark. Last time around I fired about 80 rounds and put 15-25 patches down the tube. I put a few more dry patches down until they stop coming back dark, and then I start running Gunzilla CLP down until I get to a light grey color or better. Once again up to 15-20 patches.

I also take some Hoppes patches on a chopstick to rub down the chamber, and carefully wipe down the front lugs, magazine follower, and pull the bolt head off the bolt body for a through rubbing along with the tip of the firing pin. All of this followed with a fresh coat of Gunzilla and a replacing of grease where applicable.

However, the last two times I've taken her out, I've peeked down the bore 2-3 days later and it was starting to look rough and discolored. Ran a patch of Gunzilla down and it came back brown. Took me 6-7 patches to get rid of what I can only assume is developing rust.

I don't want to lose any of my bore to this menace, but I'm not sure what I could be doing wrong with my cleaning process since Hoppes is supposed to dissolve the primer salts and the Gunzilla has been working well for storage purposes on a number of other guns I've tinkered with and cleaned. A little help?
 
I've had my Mosin for about a year, and I've had it out a dozen or so times putting at least 50 rounds through each time.

I squirt windex with ammonia on the bolt and down the barrel at the range when I'm done shooting. I let it air dry for 10 minutes or so, and then I bag it up and take it home.

I usually do a full clean within a day or two. I use a bronze brush with Hoppes, maybe two or three passes. Then I use a bore snake with a little Hoppes for two or three passes. Then I use a patches wrapped around a old crappy bronze brush until I gets pretty clean, I don't ever get spotless. Then I run an oily patch down the barrel (I assume the Gunzilla product you're using is a CLP type product and not just a solvent).

My bore has stayed shiny, no brown coming out on passes weeks or so after cleanings.

The first thing I can think of in your case is that there was rust in the barrel when you bought the thing. I've heard once a barrel starts rusting that it's hard to make it stop.

The second option is that something you're doing is leaving a residue behind in the barrel, and the brown stuff you're pulling out isn't rust.

If I were you, I would put a THICK coat of non-drying oil, maybe Hoppes oil (not the solvent), down the barrel. Leave it for a couple weeks and then check it out and see.

Another issue might be the mixing of products creating a residue, so maybe try only using Hoppes.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
Mr. Taylor,

You're doing nothing wrong. Clean as normal. You can wash the barrel out with a drop of Dawn added to tepid water (hot water causes flash rust!) followed by a thorough rinsing, but it's really not needed.

I flat don't know where the myth about ammonia came from. Windex is a surfactant and will clean salt out, but not as well as a water flush. Ammonia is old-school for copper and Hoppes sells a cleaner with high ammonia content (benchrest, I think.)

The salts are just potassium chloride. Potassium chloride tastes a lot like sodium chloride and is used as a substitute for table salt when folks have high sodium levels.

The thing about salt is this: It's extremely hygroscopic (gathers moisture). Moisture held against bare metal will trigger rust.

As to what's happening with your Mosin:

You have years of layer upon layer of improper cleaning in that bore. It's to be expected. When you're trying to stay alive you just don't have time for proper cleaning between "strings".

If you have a rifle and you're being attacked, it's generally ill-advised to render that rifle unable to shoot back.

So... you're using modern cleaners. Those things go deeeep and get all that nasty gunk. Said nasty gunk comes to the surface. You shoot it out or push it out with a patch, and you repeat.

Now, about these cleaners: They don't stop working when you put the rifle away! They keep bringing gunk to the top.

You're getting black gunk and not red or brown rust. It's not rust.

If you clean after every outing, you'll eventually have a time when the bore comes out clean and clear. In fact, it may look new.

My favorite Mosin -- the one I use for prototyping and for critter control and an all-around working gun -- took about a year of firing and cleaning cycles to get the bore all the way down to the metal.

Now, it shines like new. Like my target .22LR's bore, in fact.

The good thing about all this besides stripping the bore clean eventually is that the gunk will hold the cleaner and oil, and prevent further damage to the bore.

Now, if you're filling adventurous, try this:

1. Get some foaming bore cleaner.

2. Run regular powder solvent through to clean to the first copper layer, then wipe out thoroughly.

3. Spray the foaming bore cleaner down and let it set for 1/2 hour to 1 hour.

4. Push that out with a patch. It will be green.

5. You'll see another powder fouling layer!

6. Goto 2.

Historical grime... down the drain. Maybe you should save the historical fouling for future generations? :D A joke for the purists among us.

Me, I'd just shoot it out. Doing the above list once was plenty for me!

Regards,

Josh
 
Hot water does not cause rust. Hot water, boiling even, has been the preferred cleaner for corrosive residue for over 100 years because if you great the barrel enough it will promote flash drying, leaving the metal dry and rust free.

no matter what though, cleaning solutions containing water is the key.
 
Hoppes 9 is great for what it does, but its not good at dissolving the salts from corrosive priming. Water is best for that, soapy doesn't hurt, Windex is water based. Hot (near boiling) is good, and dries fast. Never heard of "flash rust", till now....

Clean all areas exposed to powder gas with a water based solvent. Dry properly. Then clean with solvents made to remove powder residue, copper, etc. Then clean it again a couple days later.

While not visible to the naked eye, steel is somewhat porous, and stuff will continue to come out, for a long time.
 
The Hoppes is your problem.:eek:
Its a great cleaner, but not water-based so it doesn't dissolve the corrosive salts because salt doesn't like to dissolve in oils.

Either use a water -based cleaner, such as KG Big Bore, or M-Pro-7 & your problems will wash a way.:)
You can also use hot water, cold water or soapy water as long as you clean normally afterwards. If you use water as a salt solvent wipe with 2~3 dry patches & add oil after that to prevent rust. Oily metal doesn't rust!
 
You have to use water based solvent to neutralize corrosive. My usual regimen is patches with brake cleaner on them until I get the fouling out. Brake cleaner cleans quickly, but it does not neutralize corrosive salts. When I actually have the barrel clean of powder residue, I use a copper solvent like Montana Extreme. Again, Montana extreme does not neutralize corrosive salts. After I have the rifle "clean," I use a couple of patches soaked in Thompson Center black powder solvent. That neutralizes corrosive salts. I let that soak for a half hour or so and then run a couple dry patches through the barrel. Short term storage, I oil it. Long term storage, I grease the barrel and chamber with "Bore Butter."
 
Mike, yes, Sir, it does. This has long been known to traditional muzzleloaders and I learned it when I got into the game for a bit.

Heat is a catalyst. This is why warm baths are preferred for bluing. Actually, a warm salt bath is used to oxidize the metal; the color is dependent upon the type of salts used. A popular solution contains trace amounts of both sodium and potassium chlorides.

You can also test this by placing two identical pieces of steel in water. Bring one to a boil and leave the other one cold. Take both out and see which rusts first.

Carbon steel will attract oxygen atoms. Heat is a well-known catalyst.

Here are some discussions giving the particulars, and good arguments for and against:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/229133/

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=612933

http://www.ctgclean.com/tech-blog/2012/01/some-things-you-should-know-about-rust/

http://www.ctgclean.com/tech-blog/2...enting-oxidation-during-cleaning-and-rinsing/

I've run into flash rusting in more past-times than firearms.

Actually, and more specifically, the flash rust is caused by the evaporation of water combined with the hot iron or steel.

A phosphate rinse should help, and I've heard that mixing sodium bicarbonate with hot water can also inhibit flash rust, but I've not tried it. Anything that ties up those pesky free oxygen atoms will inhibit the formation of flash rust.

But the best thing is to simply not use boiling water. Too many free O atoms. Tepid water is indeed best.

Regards,

Josh
 
My Dad was in the army prior to and during WWII, and had a lot of experience cleaning corrosive ammo residue. When corrosive bore solvent wasn't available, they used water near to boiling, followed by oil. The hot water heats the metal which dries quickly, the oil protects it.
I have followed his advice with my Mosin and my Saiga 74 5.45.
Since I have been shooting the 5.45 a lot, I switched to using a mix of hot water and Ballistol, followed by straight Ballistol.
I certainly would not use water without following up with some sort of preservative oil or CLP, which makes the test of immersing a steel bar in water hot and cold and seeing which one rusts first fairly worthless.
 
For cleaning my 91/30, I made up a quart bottle of soap solution. I filled it most of the way with water, and gave it a HUGE squirt of Dawn.

Put the cap on, shake it well.

When you use it, remove the bolt, point the rifle DOWN toward dirt, and juice that bore down with soapy water. Then use a good bronze brush, again saturated with soapy water. Scrub it a bit, with complete strokes.

Now, put one more soap patch through, then patch it dry.

To ensure that ALL fouling is removed over time, do this:

Soak a patch in Kroil, and saturate the bore. I recommend sitting it on a folded up dirty towel---muzzle down. The Kroil will get under the fouling and loosen it. Do some subsequent cleaning sessions with Hoppe's.

Or, if you REALLY want to get busy with it, dry the bore COMPLETELY and take some Sweet's 7.62 to it, with a loose patch ONLY. Let it sit for no more than 5 minutes. Patch out with dry patches. Observe the gunk that flows forth. Ewwwwww....:eek:

Best way to remove years of neglect is an Outer's Foul-Out. Set it up, following the instructions. Let it run for about 45 minutes; then dump the solution and put a tight patch down the bore. Here's a heads up--don't be surprised if you have to assist the patch down the bore with some light taps from a mallet on the handle end.

This happened with my .220 Swift. I was considering a re-barreling--then, I tried the Foul-Out. After the patch stopping cold in the leade, I gave it a few taps. There was an audible "crack!" and then the patch moved normally. Out came a SLEEVE of back, hard carbon, shot through with what looked like copper strands. The bore looked brand new and unfired.
 
ckpj99: I've been thinking about switching to a dedicated oil instead of a CLP. I might give that a try and see if it has any noticeable benefit.
___

Mr. Smith: Thank you for your insights. I'll keep scrubbing and see what happens. I have noticed that the bore is getting steadily shinier in appearance. I'll give some foaming bore cleaner a shot and see what comes out.

I've been studying your accurizing guides and I'm looking forward to buying one of your shimming and corking kits soon. This is the only rifle I'm likely to have for a while, so I'm trying to make her the best she can be.
___

Mr. Irwin: I used hot water to clean cosmoline when I first received this rifle. I didn't know water could be used to clean the primer salts too. Good to know, thanks.
___

44 AMP: It's amazing to me how much gunk this bore has been able to contain. It didn't even look like it was in that bad of a condition to begin with. I'll keep cleaning and make sure to keep some water on hand for my next range trip. Thank you.
___

wogpotter: I'm definitely going to hunt for a water based cleaning solution of some kind, even if I just end up mixing it myself. Knowing I can just patch the excess water out makes me more comfortable with using water.
___

reynolds357: How do you know when you have the bore clean of powder residue? When it stops patching back black I presume? Do you apply the copper cleaner after every range trip, or only periodically?
___

Powderman: I'm hoping my bore is clean enough to get her shined up gradually without too much hassle. If I can't get the results I want though I'll definitely consider breaking out some of those heavier compounds. I'll add them to my research list for later on. Thank you.

_____

One question I'm especially curious about. What is the more reliable way to clean the chamber of a 91/30? My cleaning kit didn't come with a brush, and I'm not sure if my .30 cal bore snake is scrubbing the chamber as well as the barrel? What techniques or tools should I consider for confidently positive results? I'm a newcomer to shooting in general, so my even my knowledge of basic maintenance is still developing.
 
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Knowing I can just patch the excess water out makes me more comfortable with using water.
Click to expand...
Its patch dry & oil. Its a double act like Abbott & Costello:D, the patches wipe away the water & the oil stops air reaching the metal to cause rust.;)
 
Back sixty-some years ago, I had access to a bunch of corrosive GI ammo for my 1917 Enfield. For cleaning, I'd stick the muzzle down into a can of hot soapy water. Use the cleaning rod and patch as a pump. A dozen or so strokes. Then, a clean patch and plain hot water. Another dozen or so strokes.

A dry patch through and then an oily patch.

Never any rust in the bore.
 
Regarding hot or cold water for cleaning.

I've been using scalding hot soapy water, followed by a scalding hot clean water rinse & then forced air drying with a hair dryer set to LOW & HOT for cleaning B/P guns for a couple of years now. So far no as in zero rust. I really believe its the immediate oiling that is the answer.

For steel to rust it needs air for oxygen. Covering the metal in oil blocks the air from contacting the metal so no rust.
 
All good advice above.

But don't forget about the bolthead, as this is also exposed to a small amount of the combustion gases (it wouldn't get dirty, if it weren't...). Hot water first, then cleaner, then protectant of your choice.
 
Hello,

I'm really not against the use of hot water as long as oil immediately follows.

Its folks who pour hot water at the range and then wait to oil until they are home that I was primarily addressing. The have seemingly brown bores and can't figure out why.

The Brits issued funnels with at least some Enfields.

Just... Salts do not neutralize. They wash away.

Regards,

Josh
 
Corrosive Primers

Well I no longer have a M/N but even to this day I use military surplused ammunition and of course some of it is primed with corrosive primers.
If the Range Boss allows I'll run a few wet as in wet with water patches down the bore while the firearm is hot from firing followed by a quick bore brushing. dry and oil.
When back at the house I'll boil a big pot of water, place the muzzle end into the water and push a tight bore mop down and out the muzzle, pull it back up to the chamber and when the suction is released the water runs back into the pot, repeat several times as need or desired.
Then for the real clean up I use Sweets 7.62. Nasty smelly stuff that is quite powerful, mind the instruction to NOT leave in the barrel for more than 15 minutes. Nylon bore brushes only and dry patch. Repeat until the blue/green stain on your patches has gone away. Oil and inspect again in a couple of days to insure you have removed all that nasty salty stuff.
Always wipe, with hot water any areas of your firearm that may have come into contact with the products of combustion. Bolt face, chamber magazine follower, gas system piston, tube etc.
Happy shooting
 
I'm kind of like Art, I don't over-complicate the whole cleaning business. I use a 25/75 Ballistol & water mixture. The water emulsified (if that weren't a word before- it is now) with the Ballistol cures the salts woes, and the Ballistol remains as a cleaner/lube. Occasionally I'll still throw in a cycle of CLP- but not very often, and like Art, I've never seen a sign of rust so far.
 
"Its folks who pour hot water at the range and then wait to oil until they are home that I was primarily addressing."

Water of any temperature will do that. The difference is the amount of time needed and the specific reactivity of the steel/iron.

As I said before, hot water doesn't CAUSE rust. Heat increases the reaction speed, as it does with most other chemcial reactions. That's why you want the water as hot as possible when you clean, which will cause the barrel to flash dry before the electrochemical rusting reaction can occur.

Water causes iron to rust due to an electrochemical interaction that results in free oxygen ions being released, which then combine with iron to form ferrous oxide.

Salts, including potassium chloride, are both hydrogscopic and also serve to ramp up the electrochemical reaction that results in rusting.
 
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