Clean and Powder?

S

stagpanther

New member
Put a scope on my new Impact and zeroed at 50 then went out to 100. First 2 245 powerbelts driven by 2 pellets of pyrodex were touching eachother at 100--but my third shot was maybe 3" below the first two. Conditions were very cold--barely 20 maybe and I was shooting directly into the sun--so I may have pulled the last shot a bit.

I'm noticing that I'm getting thick crusty residue after each shot which I cannot get out by simply dry-patching--I have to do a bore-solvent clean and dry patch in order to get the next bullet seating to match the depth and "sidewall pressure." I also just bought some Pyrodex RS powder as well as some Buckhorn 209.

My question(s) are

1. How dramatically can your clean regimen between shots effect accuracy?

2. What is the best powder in terms of least residue/best accuracy?

Thanks from a newbie to BP : )
 
I swab between shots. I hear on the power belts that best accuracy is obtained with around 90 gr. and using heavier charges does not cause better bullet expansion, you are just wasting powder.
 
I have never seen a TC yet that would shoot power belts worth a hoot.

I would go with a 250 grain Barnes, TC, or Hornady sabot for starters, and in that order.

I swab between every shot even in the field.TC makes some pretty good pre soaked patches with number 13 bore cleaner but I make my own using Butch's bore shine for black powder. Its the best black powder cleaner I have ever used.

In the field, I keep about a dozen in a Skoal can in my pocket to keep them from freezing. Run three or four wet patches and then a few dry patches to make sure everything is clean. Be sure to squeeze out any excess moisture out of the presoaked patches before running them down the barrel or you will foul your breech plug.

I would also use two triple seven Magnum pellets 60 grains each as a 28 inch barrel cannot burn more than 120 grains of powder.

What you are running into is, a combination of black powder fouling and plastic residue left in the barrel after firing. This fouling and plastic must be removed! For greatest accuracy in and inline, every shot must be the same as the one before, and the barrel must be cleaned between every shot. It is best when you do this while the barrel is still warm.

Blackhorn 209 is excellent powder. Practically no cleaning between shots. This powder should be cleaned with Montana extreme cleaning solvent or any other solvent designed for smokeless powder. I also would recommend no more than 110 grains as a maximum charge of this powder.

If you are going to use pellets, go with a triple seven brand toned down 209 primer. if you plan on using Blackhorn 209, use a very hot federal or European 209 shotgun primer.

Good luck and if you have anymore questions, Please hit us up here on this column.

If all else fails, go back and read the manufacturer's recommendations. They will tell you the exact same thing that I just did.

All the best,

Birch
 
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You wipe between shots to return the bore to the same condition as the last shot fired. You clean at the end of the day.

Use that powder you bought for fertilizer and buy some real black powder online and have it delivered if there's none available in your area.
 
Thanks for the advice guys!

I've been eyeing sabots--but anything Barnes seems sold out just about everywhere but I'll keep looking. Although I'm new to BP I've been a reloader for years--so I'm pretty tuned into the consistency thing. Normally when seeking an accurate load I'd do ladders that may chew up dozens of cartridges seeking the best charge/bullet combo--but I just can't afford to do that with BP--it's too expensive (not to mention would likely take more than a day to properly do one!) ; )
 
Pyrodex powders pellet or loose is a evil powder. Actually more corrosive than real B/P itself. Some fellows claim they can shoot all day long without the need of barrel swabbing when using Blackhorn powder. {but I'm kind of suspicious whether they see any decent accuracy after a few shots.} Blackhorn when compared to Pyrodex is worlds apart so its been claimed. Since you have both powders available you'll see for yourself whether the claim is true or not.

As far projectiles. One that I know of: Powerbelt's seem to be pretty accurate in all Thompson Inlines. Although I'm sure there are other bullet products that work just as well. Here is a good Net site to do a little research if your interested. And you could call or email for any questions you have concerning your Impact's loading. {what works & what doesn't for your rifle's intended purpose.}
I do use PR products and have been pleased with there performance on paper. (in a fast twist 45 cal barrel I have.) Then again I consider myself a traditional shooter in the field when hunting big game and use patched ball for that purpose. I don't use any other powder than Black these days. No substitute's. But I have experimented with substitutes in the past.

FWIW: There is nothing wrong with swabbing between shots. Whether your rifle needs it of not. Its a good habit. Not doing so. That's a choice you'll have to decide for yourself. Frankly: I myself swab after every second shot because my rifles accuracy suffers if I don't being it's a small bore barreled rifle. (45 fouls allot quicker than my 54 does.)

www.prbullet.com
 
cleaning between shots

Well I guess I am doing it all wrong according to most folks here.
But then again I never use sabots and I wouldn't give an inline a second look, let alone let it in the house.
I have a 50 cal traditional sidelock. I have used holy black, pyro and t7
Bulk only of course.
Not enough difference between the three as to accuracy, or energy or after cleaning, to waste spit. as far as I am concerned.
Cleaning between shot? Have never bothered and my accuracy at the range never seemed to suffer at all.
But then again I rarely use paper for punching holes. Use a 12" diameter 1/4" thick metal plate hanging from a tree limb or such. That is my kill zone out to 100yd.
Only time I have swabbed at range is when the last projectile was a bitch to get down the bore.
Hunting? Nope never, except as above.
Black powder rifles IMO were never meant to be fired like modern ones.
I don't care if you design them as an inline, add a 209 primer for a modern shot shell, and then devise a new powder that is harder to ignite so you need the 209 primer, and then devise a sabotted slug.
Just not going with it.
BP rifles of traditional design have worked great for 100's of years.
And as somebody said in the thread, that plastic sabot is leaving a hard plastic crud ring. Plastic is a petroleum by product. Most people agree petroleum based products (such as lubes) and BP don't mix well together.
My rifle is a 35 year old CVA (1978 /79) Mountain .50 cal Still as accurate now as back then. typical load 75 to 90 ffg. and a 320 grain conical.
 
No one here is doing anything wrong. My only point was that in lines and side lock cap and ball rifles are two completely different animals and need to be treated accordingly.

I must disagree with Sure Shot, I have just never seen a TC that will shoot power belts worth a hoot. Not saying that it can't happen, just saying I've never seen it.

All the best gentlemen,

Birch
 
I have some "conventional" black powder on the way from GRafs': GOEX OLDE EYNSFORD and GOEX BLACK POWDER--wanted SWiss but it was sold out. Any thoughts on these black powders? I may one day buy a flintlock kit and build one--looks like fun. : )
 
I shoot patched round balls and clean when it starts getting tough to reload. Yep, I'm lazy. That said, I'm not good enough to discern the difference between a clean bore and a dirtier bore. It's hard enough to see the rear sight (yep, time to move the rear sight forward where I can see it sharply).

My powder is Goex 2F or 3F (depending on the caliber).
 
I noticed on the Hodgdon site they recommend the use of a wad between the powder and conical bullet--is that common for most black powders/substitutes or unique just to their 777/ Pyrodex?
 
I have just never seen a TC that will shoot power belts worth a hoot. Not saying that it can't happen, just saying I've never seen it.
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Well Sir. I personally don't have any experience with their use. But I know of three hunting individuals that do use Powerbelts and all three seem to be pleased with P/Belts performance on MN deer. One individual has a Omega, another has a Encore Pro Hunter, the last shoots a CVA Optima. 2 of the fellows are using Triple-7 pellets. One prefers T/7 loose (I believe??) I don't personally hunt with any of the three. As they are neighbors who hunt with their own family members down the road from my place. But we do get together in the evenings to socialize quite often during our deer season. So, that's how I come to know what they prefer too use in their rifles. And according to the OP of this thread he's not complaining about their down range accuracy he has experienced. Just the fouling he's encountering. So that makes Four. Now if you BirchOrr have some experiences to share. Or perhaps knowing about some other individual's disappointment with the use of Powerbelts I sure wouldn't mind hearing about them.

I'm noticing that I'm getting thick crusty residue after each shot which I cannot get out by simply dry-patching
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There lies the difference for some fellows who chose the Inline rifle style over the Traditional model. Traditional ball & musket ball shooters use a grease lube of some sort which helps to soften fouling residue. Sabot and many conical's similar to Powerbelts don't have a lube. {other then Hornady's Great Plains Conical's.} Then again in cold climates maybe a hotter 209 is the answer to your crud/ fouling problem. Federal 209s are often talked about.
 
wad under projectile

"I noticed on the Hodgdon site they recommend the use of a wad between the powder and conical bullet--is that common for most black powders/substitutes or unique just to their 777/ Pyrodex? "

Some people have tried it and claim it helped their accuracy.
Only way for you to know though is to try it both ways and see.
Mine is a 35+ year old CVA mountain in .50 cal.
My accuracy with the 320 and the older 360 grain conicals from Lee moulds have been just fine so I have not bothered to use a wad with them.
 
I have never seen a TC yet that would shoot power belts worth a hoot.
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I've never seen PowerBelts shoot good in anything except a CVA.

As to the pellets, go with loose. Far better shot consistency with loose than with pellets.
 
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Tried some 777 pellets and blackhorn 209 powder today--using only powerbelts since my other stuff hasn't come in yet. The best I could get was maybe 3" at 100 with 70 grs of blackhorn driving a 270 gr platinum aerotip. Not too thrilled--that's about on par with shotgun performance.
 
Ok gentlemen,

I would like to address some issues here. first of all I would like to say that I am a gunsmith and 10 years ago went into business with a local black powder gun shop owner. My partner is one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever known when it comes to traditional and inline black powder. StagPanther, who started this column just wants simple answers and is new to black powder. I will attempt to address his questions and address other comments as I go along. I am NOT a self proclaimed expert.

Do you need a wad under a sabot in an inline rifle? Absolutely not.

SureShot, Do I have any experience to share? You bet I do. I am in the unique position where I have absolutely everything available to me to shoot, test and fire at any time and that is exactly what I do. And I do mean everything. I have fired thousands of rounds of everything available through every rifle made. And in my experience, power belts work very well in CVA's and typically do not work well in Thompson Center rifles. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, that is just typically not how it normally works out. Simply, CVA's are designed to shoot them, and Thompson centers are not.

Power belts do have an advantage as they are a 50 caliber projectile where as a 50 caliber sabbot is not a 50 caliber, it is actually a 45 caliber bullet.

It was discovered after the introduction of the 209 primer, that they were a bit too hot for black powder or substitutes. it caused a powder/bullet jump milliseconds in the barrel before discharge of the powder. This is why a toned down triple 7 209 primer is needed. For every problem or issue there is something created to counteract it. this delay, and consequential air space, is what causes the dreaded crud ring and melted plastic.The standard 209 shotgun primer is simply too hot.

If you are using a standard cap and ball rifle or a flintlock, a hundred yards is great. Its the best you will get . If you are using an off-the-shelf in line, you can get out to 250 yards. If you do it right.

A three inch group at 100 yards with an inline is not good enough for me. If I am using a cap and ball gun, that's great. With an in-line, I am looking for a 1 inch group at 200 yards.
 
Ok gentlemen,

I would like to address some issues here. First of all I would like to say that I am a gunsmith and 10 years ago went into business with a local black powder gun shop owner. My partner is one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever known when it comes to traditional and inline black powder. StagPanther, who started this column just wants simple answers and is new to black powder. I will attempt to address his questions and address other comments as I go along. I am NOT a self proclaimed expert. I do however, have thousands of hours of trigger time under my belt.

Do you need a wad under a sabot in an inline rifle? Absolutely not.

SureShot, Do I have any experience to share? You bet I do. I am in the unique position where I have absolutely everything available to me to shoot, test and fire at any time and that is exactly what I do. And I do mean everything. I have fired thousands of rounds of everything available through every rifle made. And in my experience, power belts work very well in CVA's and typically do not work well in Thompson Center rifles. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, that is just typically not how it normally works out. Simply, CVA's are designed to shoot them, and Thompson centers are not.

Power belts do have an advantage as they are a 50 caliber projectile where as a 50 caliber sabbot is not a 50 caliber, it is actually a 45 caliber bullet. this being said, I'm going out on a limb here but I'm not a huge fan of CVA or power belts.

It was discovered after the introduction of the 209 primer, that they were a bit too hot for black powder or substitutes. It caused a powder/bullet jump milliseconds in the barrel before discharge of the powder. This is why a toned down triple 7 209 primer is needed. For every problem or issue there is something created to counteract it. This delay, and consequential air space, is what causes the dreaded crud ring and melted plastic.The standard 209 shotgun primer is simply too hot. This is not to say that you still are not going to need to swab between shots to remove the fouling and plastic fouling.

If you are using a standard cap and ball rifle or a flintlock with iron sights, a hundred yards is great. Its the best you will get . If you are using an off-the-shelf in line with a good scope, you can get out to 250 yards. If you do it right.

A three inch group at 100 yards with an inline is not good enough for me. If I am using a cap and ball rifle that's great. With an in-line, I am looking for a 1 inch group at 200 yards. I guess my question is what are we trying to accomplish?

Kindest regards,

Birch
 
Once again thanks so much for the great advice.

@Frontier--I do in fact swab and dry patch after EVERY shot; basically I clean so that a clean patch can pass on a jag all the way down to the breech with uniform but moderate resistance. Many years and many thousands of rounds done on a reload press have had the benefit of "sensitizing" me to read these kinds of pressures.

@Birch--it's interesting you mention the primers; the way I read Blackhorn's website seems to suggest that they recommend using a regular 209 shotshell primer as being the more powerful primer http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/ unless there is something I'm not understanding correctly.
 
Stagpanther, are you removing the breech plug when you clean between shots? If not, I'd recommend you do so. When I'm at the range I put a patch in my mouth as I'm shooting. After the shot, I remove the plug and run that wet patch down the barrel paying special attention to the breech area. I'll turn it over and run it through again. If it still comes out dirty, I'll run another spit-wet patch front and back. Then I'll run a dry patch before reloading.

That is the only way I know of to prevent that dreaded crud ring from getting a good start in the first place.
 
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