Civilian Handgun self defense 100% kill rate in Philadelphia

M

Master Blaster

New member
I know that this is the headline news reported by the press in Philly only for the source of my 100% statistic, we can call it the casual observational model of civilian handgun defense.

In the last year two incidents recieved coverage in the local TV and press where a civilian defended himself against a badguy or two with a handgun and had a solid kill
(the nuber of rounds was not reported)
Incident 1 about last november a man was getting into his work van in the notheast and two young males atempted to carjack him at gunpoint. The man drew a gun and shot both assailants dead, he was a legal CC and shotting was justified.

Incident 2 about this past may, a baker on his way to the night deposit from the store was confronted at gunpoint by one assailant the man drew from cover and killed the assailant.

I will try to do some news searches on these and find the actual stories. It looks to me though that the public Jon Q, Sixpaque Joe, like me is better at armed conflict than the trained LEO. THIS IS THE NIAVE MEDIA MODEL remember please.

What do you guys think??

OH Hand gun make unknown caliber unknown and number of shots unknown. Effectiveness 100% stop without a reload. No innocent bystanders injured, Civilian hero uninjured.

By the way Ive seen the phila delphia Police carry :
G17 Most younger officers on the street.
S&W Revolver 3.5" .357 mag but only older officers.
S&W 3rd gen 9mm not sure of model.
Septa police: S&W 3rd gen, revolvers, and G17.
Once I saw a Ruger P89.

[This message has been edited by Master Blaster (edited July 15, 2000).]
 
Good info digging, keep it up please.

Me thinkin that maby the civillian Joe Sixpack more willing to expend his own time and money to obtain a modicum of proficiency and many ( not all ) LEOs only practice when told to.

Sam
 
...and little Joe Sixpack shall lead them in their hour of need...follow the yellow brick road. Way to go Master Blaster...guess we ain't all psycho civilains, some of us are pretty proficient with firearms when it comes to crunch time.
 
Originally posted by Master Blaster:
One of them was in OverBrook right outside of Philadelphia Master!
That was the first time I heard on the radio that someone with a permit actually stopped a crime. I was surprised to hear them actually put that on the news.
Click to expand...
 
I have come to two fundamental conclusions about today's handgun shooters:
> A few (both LEOs and non-LEOs) work hard at pistol-craft; they practice regularly, maintain their weapons carefully, study the "state of the art", and eventually become quite knowledgeable and proficient.
> Most (both LEOs and non-LEOs) do not; they own a handgun or two, rarely practice -- and then only to achieve minimum competence, not to become highly accurate -- maintain their weapons poorly, are disinterested in pistol-craft, and will never be more than "accidents waiting to happen".

This is bad enough for the homeowner who has a pistol in the dresser, but it is disgraceful -- and potentially disastrous -- for LEOs. When (in NYC last year or Philadelphia last week) LEOs fire dozens of rounds and achieve aggregate "hit rates" approximating 10 percent, serious troubles exist. These problems include both the perception of excessive force (40+ shots fired at close range at one BG) and safety (all those high-velocity rounds go somewhere). This is not LEO bashing. I have strong "law and order" values (my father was a career FIB agent and I spent my life as a Naval officer), but what percentage of today's LEOs really take care of their weapons, really study defensive shooting and pistol-craft, and really are highly accurate handgun marksmen?

IMHO, the average participant in this forum (as only one example) is likely to be a lot more "pistol-craft capable" than the average LEO -- and I certainly recognize and respect the MANY LEOs who are major TFL contributors.

I hope police officials perceive this significant issue and work to resolve it.
 
Well I searched the Philadelphia inquirer archives and did not find either of these stories.

Most likely they were only on the police blotter (a text summary is only available and not for the police blotter)

What I did find that was interesting were these two summary articles:

Published on 03/13/2000, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER
HOLDUP PROVES FATAL FOR GUNMAN
WHEN TWO MEN TRIED TO ROB A MARKET IN HUNTING PARK,
GUNFIRE INJURED A CUSTOMER AND LEFT ONE ASSAILANT DEAD.
TEXT: Philadelphia police yesterday were seeking an armed holdup man whose partner was shot and killed by a shop owner during a robbery Saturday at a grocery store in the city's Hunting Park section.
The robber was fatally injured by gunfire after wounding a customer in the market and threatening to shoot the merchant and his children, police said.
Published on 03/03/2000, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER
BOTCHED ROBBERY LED TO DEATHS OF 2, POLICE SAY
A 24-YEAR-OLD MAN THWARTED THREE GUNMEN WHO
SWARMED A FERN ROCK HOUSE, AUTHORITIES SAID.
TEXT: Dwayne Thomas and his cousin, Allen Ingram, were renovating a house Wednesday night in Fern Rock when three masked gunmen forced their way inside, intent on robbery, police said.
But the holdup became a scuffle that ended in gunfire, police said. When it was over, two of the alleged robbers were dead, killed by Thomas, who had gotten control of an intruder's pistol. The third robber escaped in a champagne-colored minivan that Thomas also shot at, investigators said.

If you go to the phillynews.com website and search the library archive on the words shot and robbery you will see that civilians often use their guns to thwart crime, over 132 story summaries came up for the last 2 years, this does not count the police blotter stories.

I also noted a couple of stories about off duty LEO's thwarting robberies and successfully shooting badguys.

The average Philadelphia police officer needs alot more training.

I really do think police need to verrify that a perp has a gun before they start shooting. If one of us did what the NY police did to Ammadoo Diallo we would be arrested for manslaughter or murder.

I thought he had a gun is not good enough for CC holders, why should it be good enough for the police.
 
Master Blaster,
"If one of us did what the NY police did to Ammadoo Diallo we would be arrested for manslaughter or murder."

The were arrested for murder and they were acquitted in a criminal trial in February.

There is an enormous difference in comparing CC holders to onduty LEOs in the performance of their lawful duties (in regards to use of force). This has been debated many times on TFL.
 
Thanks Master Blaster,

and I agree wholeheartedly with C.R.Sam. Most LEO's are not shooters, however, I think we should remember that they are trained and certified by their respective states. Apparently, the hit (or miss) ratios that most of Law Enforcement suffer from are acceptable to the powers that be, otherwise the officer's would be better trained. Sorry, but you don't take a non-shooter and make him an excellent combat shooter in 40 hours of training. In the Military Law Enforcement community it is even worse. Actual range time for Military Police soldiers is two days and approximately 120 rounds. 60 for practise qualification and 10 for warmup, 50 for qualification.

One Military Criminal Investigative Service (I'll not say which one) spends two days and one evening at the range however, over three hundred rounds are shot, which is nicer, but not enough (is it ever enough?). The emphasis of course is on qualification, not shooting in combat. Of course, they also tell you to unsnap the thumbbreak with your non-firing hand, but that's a different story entirely.

My point is that although it is an officer's responsibility to get training and improve himself, if it doesn't interest him, he won't do it on his own. Those of us in Law Enforcement, the Military, (or Military Law Enforcement :) ), and the civilian world, not only take our training seriously out of necessity, but because we enjoy it. Why do we congregate here, because we like shooting. If the Millenium were here and the lion was laying with the lamb, we would still be at the range shooting on Saturday mornings because we like guns and like to shoot them even more. I just hope the Lord doesn't mind :).

Regards to all,

Chuck
 
RWK, you're 100% correct. Most cops, today, can't shoot well at all, and don't really care.

They have the attitude of, "Ahh, hell, it can't happen to me," or, "Ahhh, hell, if it happens to me, I'll drag out the ol' cannon and blast the bad guys quicker than a cat can lick his a$$, hahahahaha!"


There are always those few who take defensive handgun/shotgun shooting very seriously, and practice, and always try to improve their shooting skills... but the mediocre and lackadasical offset the small minority.

Apply that to most Fed cops, too. It also applies to many civilians.

FWIW. J.B.
 
Most of us here on TFL shoot because we like it, it is a hobby for us. Most of the LEOs that shoot a lot is the same, they like it.

As an LEO I practice my shooting because I want to collect that big retirement. ;) Also, guns and shooting are my hobby.

Shooting is like everything else, the people who like it do it more, those that dislike it don't. Of course those that don't shoot more are the ones that probably need to practice the most.

There are plenty of civilian gun owners that have the same problem. A lot of people go buy a gun and throw it in a nighstand drawer for a "rainy day".

This is just human nature.

Of course the average LEO will end up needing that gun to save their life before the average civilian gun owner, therefore they should practice more.

[This message has been edited by mrat (edited July 17, 2000).]
 
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