Civil Behavior and language

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randersonabq

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I am a Democrat. I believe that government has the responsibility to help and protct our citizens. The politician I most admire is Franklin D. Roosevelt, the man who saved the country in 1933. No doubt teeth are gnashing, fists are clenching and insulting words are forming on many lips.
I am a veteran of the US Navy from the Vietnam War. I volunteered because I wanted to be like the heroes that I admired of my father's generation, the winners of World War Two. Is your image of me changing?
I believe in the Bill of Rights- all ten of them. They are all important; Freedom of Speech and of the Press is as important as the Right to Bear Arms. What is your picture of me now?
I teach American History. My students are taught to think. They learn that the Bill of Rights was designed to protect the citizenry from the power of the Government. An opinion that they hold is valid if they can explain their reasoning.. Your words about me?
I own and use weapons- a Trapdoor, a Krag, a Springfield, an M1 carbine an M1, a 1911A1 and a bunch more. Am I OK?

My point is that it's not them against us. Other people's opions are legitimate whether we agree with them or not, Name calling, muttering, insulting nicknames diminish us all. We are driven to the extremes; the middle is emptied out. Well I'm in the middle, not Conservative, not Liberal. And being a moderate is harder and harder to sustain. Look at the way members of this forum describe those who disagree with them;look at the way those opposed to the totality of the Bill of Rights belittle supporters of the Second Amendment.

I may disagree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it. Anything else diminishes us and ultimately the Country
 
What a great post, randersonabq. Thank you for posting.

I think that the issues people argue about with the most vitriol are often the issues that are least important. Like when I say that FDR didn't save our country, WWII did. And it delayed the negative effects of many of FDR's socialist programs on our economy. Really, what does any of it matter today? It's fun to discuss, but what matters most is supporting our constitution.

I consider both the Democrat and Republican parties as detrimental to our constitutional republic - each in their own way.

The Dems are all too happy to steal our RKBA, deny the free exercise of religion and tax us to death for unnecessary and unconstitutional social programs.

The Reps are gleeful in their theft of our right to political speech and freedom of association, as well as infringing our fourth and fifth amendment rights in numerous ways.

It is sad that so many politically powerful people have such disregard for the founding documents of our great nation. There's plenty of guilt to spread around. The question is: Who remains that actually supports the idea of government as it was intended to be?

-Dave
 
I just recieved an email from the Minnesotas tax payers league. It states that MN has advanced to 16th place in general taxation. I joined this group the same year Tim Pawlenty was elected Gov, MN was in 4th place for highest over all taxation. Tim has worked with us-the taxpayers to hold and in some cases decrease taxes.

The senate DFL, every liberal social advocacy group, and the media here in MN have denounced us, as a racist group that spreads social injustice, economic inequality, hate towords the poor and so on.

This is not very civil talk as far as were concerned, and we will and do fight right back. Sex changes, and viagra pills for men on welefare, and forcing free hard working families to pay for such foolishness will meet STRONG resistance!

Outrages theft of peoples honest and hard earned money will get harsh responses. Politics can get ugly.

As the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat, GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN!
 
"My point is that it's not them against us."

Unfortunately, it is quite often us (gun owners) against them (anti-gunners, whose main party of record is, unfortunately, the Democratic party).
 
Welcome to TFL randersonabq! Its good to see you are a gunny.

I'll leave it to you to find a way to reconcile voting in the direction which put would Kennedy, Feinstein, Shumer and Clinton in the majority in the Senate. A man's got to live with his conscience.
 
Yeah, but

We make the task of the anti gun people easier when stridently categorize them as lunatics. We call them all sorts of names; we deride them.
We see the RKBA as a Constitutional issue, a matter of our basic Rights dating back to the very beginning of the nation. They see it as a safety issue that overrides and they see it simplistically- if no one has firearms no one can get shot.

We don't agree ,but every time we call them names, mock their beliefs as stupid, we weaken our arguement by appearing to be narrow minded and bigoted. People are concerned about gun violence. We know an armed populace diminishes crime they see the weapons as the cause of the problem.

People are not dumb- thay have what they perceive as legitimate reasons for their beliefs.

Remember that the Dems do not control the the Congress even though I seem to recall that their are more registered Dems than Reps. Pres. Bush may alter that situation but not over the issue of gun control.

People view gun owners in a poor light. We know that most of us are decent folks, honest and lawbiding. An example- I went to the post office a couple of months ago to send a Krag to my brother (both of us have C&R FFLs). People in the PO looked at me as though I had horns when I told the clerk what I was [legally] sending. How have we gotten to that state of things? Maybe it's our behavior!
 
Not our behavior.

The behavior of criminals and idiots, twisted to be blamed on "us", the law-abiding gun owners.

JFK shot? Blame the shipping of rifles through the mail, not the nutjob who shot him.

RFK shot? Blame "Saturday Night Specials", not the man who shot him.

MLK shot? Blame "white racist gunowners", not the man who shot him.

Kid injured by daddy's gun? Blame the "evil gun", not the idiot father.

The disturbing trend that needs to be acknowledged is that the "twisters" have traditionally been progressives, who want to save us from ourselves by regulation and not admit that perhaps individuals aren't all "victims" of something and need to take a little personal responsibility.

Name the modern "progressive" party.

Have lung cancer? Blame the cigarettes, not the "innocent victim" smoking the things, which have been called cancer sticks and coffin nails since at least the turn of the century.

Obese? Blame the fast food industry and oversize restaurant portions, rather than people who apparently can't push away a plate or figure out vegetables are healthier than french fries.

Kids stupid? Blame the "culturally biased" school system and low teacher salaries, not the parent who can't be bothered to discipline little Johnny so he pays attention and make him do, help him with, his homework.

Home flooded out? Blame the Corps of Engineers, not the people who knew they lived below sea level and yet chose not to pay for flood insurance, or move to higher, safer ground somewhere else.
 
Demonization

As I see it, the problem over guns is not a Democrat/Republican thing, nor a Conservative/Liberal thing (although people with these labels are involved), it is an Elitist/Individualist thing.

We call them names, and make sweeping generalizations about them, because they do the same thing to us. Gun owners have been consistantly protrayed in a bad light by not only those with a political agenda, but by the entertainment and news media. And for no little time now.

Just as anyone who steps off the pavement with a gun is called a "hunter", everyone with a gun in their hands is a "gun owner". Cirminals "own" guns, and the media makes the logical leap that since criminals own guns, gun owners must be criminals. Some people go even further, believing that the gun itself is a criminal object.

To me, it boils down to a simple question. Who owns you?
If your answer is, "I do", then I think you are in good company. Along with most of the people who post here, our Founding Fathers thought in similar terms. Individuals, who have the freedom to make their own decisions. This is a condition called Liberty.

If you believe otherwise, you are to be considered an enemy of Liberty. You may be active, or passive, but you are an enemy, nonetheless.

One of the basic philosophies of monarchy, facism, communism, socialism, etc. is that the individual serves the state. The elites "own" and make the decisions for the rest of the people. The degree of control may vary, but the undelying principle is constant.

The self styled elite (of every political view) believe that they know what is best for us. And they act on it.

Because we believe otherwise, and champion individual rights and individual freedom, we are demonized in the popular press. We are ridiculed, belittled, marginalised, and even persecuted. And while we are secure in the knowledge that we hold the moral high ground, it is difficult not to respond in kind.

Whether you choose the right or the left on any particular issue, there is one thing common to the middle of the road. The longer you stay there, the greater your risk of being run over.
 
How have we gotten to that state of things? Maybe it's our behavior!
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I think not. I think that this country has reached the point where deconstruction of all our normal institutions (such as church, Boy Scouts, marriage, property ownership, meat eating, schools) has progressed to the breaking point. We're very close to having the PC police stopping people on the street.

Spend an hour watching MTV and another watching Saturday Night Live or other humor show and you'll see what I mean.
 
Well said. It is refreshing to hear about a teacher, teaching students how to think, rather than what to think. Guess Momma was on to something when she said to take folks as they are, not as they appear, or by what they say they are. Regards 18DAI.
 
"Gun control" is not about safety

Not our behavior.

The behavior of criminals and idiots, twisted to be blamed on "us", the law-abiding gun owners.

JFK shot? Blame the shipping of rifles through the mail, not the nutjob who shot him.

RFK shot? Blame "Saturday Night Specials", not the man who shot him.

MLK shot? Blame "white racist gunowners", not the man who shot him.

Kid injured by daddy's gun? Blame the "evil gun", not the idiot father.

The disturbing trend that needs to be acknowledged is that the "twisters" have traditionally been progressives, who want to save us from ourselves by regulation and not admit that perhaps individuals aren't all "victims" of something and need to take a little personal responsibility.

Name the modern "progressive" party.
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Amen, Carebear!! A-FREAKING-MEN!!

They see it as a safety issue that overrides and they see it simplistically- if no one has firearms no one can get shot.
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That may be true of some of the low level, grassroots "progressives" who wear Birkenstocks, tye-dye teeshirts, carry hemp bookbags and drive old beat up Volvos and Saabs.

As for the "progressives" (that would be the leftist/Democrat/socialists) at the national level - the Senate and House of representatives - people like Clinton, Kennedy, Schumer, Biden, Pelosi, Feinstein, etc. the issue is not safety, it is power.

 As the old adage goes, "Gun control is not about guns - it's about control."

44 AMP points out the "control" aspect in his post:
One of the basic philosophies of monarchy, facism, communism, socialism, etc. is that the individual serves the state. The elites "own" and make the decisions for the rest of the people. The degree of control may vary, but the undelying principle is constant.
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"I believe that government has the responsibility to help and protct our citizens."

I do not. I believe that government has the responsibility to stay out of its citizen's lives to as great an extent as possible.

"My point is that it's not them against us."

As someone who has lived in California for 52 years, I'm here to tell you it *is* them against us.

Tim
 
Rander makes a point that I have also tried to put across to this board, unsuccessfully.

Gun control is not, by its nature, a Liberal/Conservative issue. It is CURRENTLY championed more by the Democratic party than the Republicans, but it would not be hard to have imagined things going a bit differently.


Unless some of you have a plan that makes the Democrats vanish, a better plan would be to take gun issues out of partisan politics. In other words, it would not be as much of an issue if it were not a PARTY issue.

To that end, the unkind and devisive language many of you use and defend only serve to solidify that artificial divide and prevents many Democratic voters from adding their voice to our cause.

Gun owners are gun owners, and should be welcomed and encouraged no matter what their OTHER political beliefs might be. To insist that someone can only be loyal to our cause if they abandon the rest of their beliefs on unrelated issues is asking too much, and will doom us.


The best outcome for gun owners will be when the Democratic voting gun owners are given a voice . But most of you just want to shut them up and treat them like lepers. That's foolish.
 
Good post randersonabq. Some people see other Americans as "the enemy" because of their views and, in some cases, resort to name calling and insults when they disagree with them. Respect for others can go a long way towards giving credibility to your views or beliefs rather than insulting those with opposing views. I also feel that responding to other forum members as you would while talking with them in person is good way to keep things civil.
 
You can't change a jackass into an eagle

Unless some of you have a plan that makes the Democrats vanish, a better plan would be to take gun issues out of partisan politics. In other words, it would not be as much of an issue if it were not a PARTY issue.
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Well then Handy, how about you convince Howard Dean, Clinton, Kennedy, Kerry, Gore, Feinstein, Pelosi, et. al. to let go of their pathological obsession with destroying our right to arms?

How about you convince these people that they need to do an about face on the RKBA issue and actually defend our right to arms for a change - as they swore to do when they took their oath of office?

If the Democratic party were true defenders of our right to arms, I'd vote Democrat myself, as would millions of gun owners who actually care about our right to arms. We vote (R) now because it is the lesser of two evils, not because we just loooooooooooove to vote (R). Some of us have a bottom line that is not for sale and is not negotiable. That bottom line is the Second Amendment.

My guess is that you'll not have much success in getting the powerbrokers in the Democratic party to change. A disarmed citizenry is their holy grail. The socialist political philosophy which they are permeated with demands it.
 
"Unless some of you have a plan that makes the Democrats vanish, a better plan would be to take gun issues out of partisan politics."

Good idea. Unfortunately it would be approximately as easy as repealing the second law of thermodynamics.

Tim
 
Steelheart,

How about getting realistic. No one is capable of changing Schummer's mind, or yours.

Howard Dean already said that gun control is not a winning issue for the Democratic party, so you're bringing him up for who knows what reason.


The debate swings on the voters who don't have strong opinions about guns. Educate them and they'll vote for Democratic reps that don't waste time in Congress on useless issues, like trying to make guns go bye-bye. The point is to make the Democrats sick of Feinstein and look for someone else to represent them.
 
How about getting realistic.
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Oh, but I am being realistic. Schumer and his Democrat/socialist cronies need to live up to their oath of office and stop working to destroy a part of the Constitution they swore to defend.
No one is capable of changing Schummer's mind, or yours.
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There's a big difference between the two of us, Bub - I defer to the judgenent of The Founders; Schumer defers to socialist political philosophy.
 
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