Citizen's Arrest Totally Unarmed?
- Thread starter okiejack
- Start date
azredhawk44
Moderator
Just my guess:
If you draw, you had better have fired, or else the situation didn't warrant pulling your weapon. Two people should know you have a gun... you and the guy you just shot.
To the best of my (limited) knowledge, you cannot detain someone by force. You are not deputized and empowered to make arrests. That doesn't make you a sheep that has to take any injustice thrown at you, it just means that you can't decide to impede somebody else's liberties by making an arrest.
If you draw, you had better have fired, or else the situation didn't warrant pulling your weapon. Two people should know you have a gun... you and the guy you just shot.
To the best of my (limited) knowledge, you cannot detain someone by force. You are not deputized and empowered to make arrests. That doesn't make you a sheep that has to take any injustice thrown at you, it just means that you can't decide to impede somebody else's liberties by making an arrest.
Like most things absolutes tend to not be true. Yes, you can affect a citizens arrest while using deadly force BUT it totally depends on the situation and circumstances.
For ex: If I were the owner of a diner and some huge menacing hulk were to come at me or a crowd of my customers with a pipe slurring drunkenly and swinging the pipe or bashing windows in, I'd certainly draw and try to get him to stop and drop PROVIDED that I had no retreat available or life was in danger. Being in a crowd means I don't have a good backstop so actually shooting may have all kinds of problems I don't want to create.
The crowd equals lots of witnesses. Get him to stop/pause/whatever then get him down on the ground and wait for LEO to arrive even if you have to have several people SIT on him. The deadly force was not used but the preparedness to use it may make the difference in the ability to make the citizens arrest without someone getting killed.
However, in general, one should not use deadly force to try to affect a citizens arrest. If you have to draw, you are probably in a position where you have no other choice but to fire. If you have the choice to either shoot or try to arrest, then there may not have been a threat of IMMEDIATE or IMMINENT death.
For ex: If I were the owner of a diner and some huge menacing hulk were to come at me or a crowd of my customers with a pipe slurring drunkenly and swinging the pipe or bashing windows in, I'd certainly draw and try to get him to stop and drop PROVIDED that I had no retreat available or life was in danger. Being in a crowd means I don't have a good backstop so actually shooting may have all kinds of problems I don't want to create.
The crowd equals lots of witnesses. Get him to stop/pause/whatever then get him down on the ground and wait for LEO to arrive even if you have to have several people SIT on him. The deadly force was not used but the preparedness to use it may make the difference in the ability to make the citizens arrest without someone getting killed.
However, in general, one should not use deadly force to try to affect a citizens arrest. If you have to draw, you are probably in a position where you have no other choice but to fire. If you have the choice to either shoot or try to arrest, then there may not have been a threat of IMMEDIATE or IMMINENT death.
You could be in for a world of hurt.A citizen's arrest is not a good idea, armed, unarmed, with or without force of any kind. When a policeman makes an arrest, he is protected against civil judgement provided probable cause existed prior to the arrest. A private citizen enjoys no such protection against civil lawsuits which may be filed later by the arrestee. For a private citizen to prevail in civil court when sued for false arrest, he must show the arrestee was in fact guilty of the offense for which the arrest was made. To prove guilt without an actual court conviction could be extremely difficult to do.
Let's say you arrest some fool for drunk driving. You aren't up on all the hurdles required to make a case like that so even if the D.A. files the case(unlikely) the drunk's lawyer can deal it down to a parking offense or, should it go all the way to trial, tie you up in very complicated knots. Either way, the drunk isn't found guilty of what you arrested him for and you have a large problem should he decide to sue you civilly.
Steve
Let's say you arrest some fool for drunk driving. You aren't up on all the hurdles required to make a case like that so even if the D.A. files the case(unlikely) the drunk's lawyer can deal it down to a parking offense or, should it go all the way to trial, tie you up in very complicated knots. Either way, the drunk isn't found guilty of what you arrested him for and you have a large problem should he decide to sue you civilly.
Steve
A citizens arrest is best avoided. If someone has violated the law, make a police report. Civil liability is very high.
Anyone carrying a fire arm should be playing the "scenario game" "if this happens I will do this". This will help you define the conditions you will use deadly force rather than heat of the moment decisions. Part of this scenario should be crowded areas. You should plan on going to one knee shooting upward. Practice shooting this way too.
Anyone carrying a fire arm should be playing the "scenario game" "if this happens I will do this". This will help you define the conditions you will use deadly force rather than heat of the moment decisions. Part of this scenario should be crowded areas. You should plan on going to one knee shooting upward. Practice shooting this way too.
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MicroBalrog
New member
This doesn't mesh well with the facts:
We KNOW that 97% of all cases of civilian self-defense do not involve the criminal being killed.
They rarely even involve the criminal beig shot.
On the contrary - you should be READY to fire, and if you are ready, you will likely not have to.
shooter429
Moderator
Steve499 is on the money here
Depending on state law...you may have a right to detain or arrest another who committed a crime in your presence or against you or someone in your company. Where I am living, a LEO has things like "probable cause" and "good faith" and a commission (giving him the right and duty to arrest) behind him should the case go south.
A citizen has no such protection. You better have personal knowledge of the offense (and it only applies to certain offenses and or circumstances around here) and you better have used only whatever reasonable force was necessary to effect your lawful purpose. Oh, and the law will likely require that they be held for only a reasonable time and in a reasonable manner while awaiting the authorities. And if the case goes south, you could face both civil AND criminal charges. God help you if you make a mistake, because you cannot fall back on probable cause or reasonable suspicion or good faith. Your freedom and assets are on the line. Imagine how much it would suck if YOU were the one to end up in the cage, instead of the bad guy.
In most circumstances I would and would advise others to act as the eyes and ears of the police and report your suspicions to them, and leave the cuffin and stuffin to the sworn officers.
If, however, you are facing a situation where there is imminent danger to life or grievous bodily injury, you may want to take that chance, knowing that it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
Shooter429
Depending on state law...you may have a right to detain or arrest another who committed a crime in your presence or against you or someone in your company. Where I am living, a LEO has things like "probable cause" and "good faith" and a commission (giving him the right and duty to arrest) behind him should the case go south.
A citizen has no such protection. You better have personal knowledge of the offense (and it only applies to certain offenses and or circumstances around here) and you better have used only whatever reasonable force was necessary to effect your lawful purpose. Oh, and the law will likely require that they be held for only a reasonable time and in a reasonable manner while awaiting the authorities. And if the case goes south, you could face both civil AND criminal charges. God help you if you make a mistake, because you cannot fall back on probable cause or reasonable suspicion or good faith. Your freedom and assets are on the line. Imagine how much it would suck if YOU were the one to end up in the cage, instead of the bad guy.
In most circumstances I would and would advise others to act as the eyes and ears of the police and report your suspicions to them, and leave the cuffin and stuffin to the sworn officers.
If, however, you are facing a situation where there is imminent danger to life or grievous bodily injury, you may want to take that chance, knowing that it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
Shooter429
I've had a few occasions where a citizen held on to the BG. They didn't declare a citizens arrest, just made sure that they didn't leave until the police got there. A couple of times the good guy had a gun out (I'm glad that he didn't feel he had to shoot just because he drew). In each case they were thanked and none were later sued or arrested. For my two bits worth:
1. Learn what YOUR state law says, play by their rules.
2. Use no more force than reasonably neccessary and remember that not all offenses justify deadly force in and of themselves.
3. If in doubt, and no lives are in danger, be a very good witness.
1. Learn what YOUR state law says, play by their rules.
2. Use no more force than reasonably neccessary and remember that not all offenses justify deadly force in and of themselves.
3. If in doubt, and no lives are in danger, be a very good witness.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
If you want to effect a citizen's arrest, and meet non-lethal resistance, you can use *reasonable* force to effect the arrest, which would include potentially OC spray, taser, etc.
Each person inclined to effect citizens arrest should understand the laws Federal, State, and local before attempting this(don't forget to read all case annotations). Unless it is absolutely criminal, ie committed robbery or burglary, murder, severe battery, etc. right in front of you, you are risking your freedom and everything you own including your right to bear arms.
I have played the "scenario game" with citizens arrest. The circumstances which I would/have executed a citizens arrest are few. I have executed 3 citizens arrests in the last 15 years. I have consulted with several of my attorney clients about this issue. I have read many case annotations related to this.
I believe with the realities of civil and criminal legal authority/decisions, citizens arrest should be left only to those who maintain significant "Errors and Omissions" insurance policies specific to citizens arrest. Security companies, armored car personnel, private detectives, bounty hunters, private process servers, etc. Some general business liability policies allow coverage for limited citizens arrest by the policy holder(bars for their bouncers, mall security). Anyone who is covered by such a policy knows (or should know) the limitations of their coverage. Most are trained to be a good witnesses and leave arrest to LE.
I have played the "scenario game" with citizens arrest. The circumstances which I would/have executed a citizens arrest are few. I have executed 3 citizens arrests in the last 15 years. I have consulted with several of my attorney clients about this issue. I have read many case annotations related to this.
I believe with the realities of civil and criminal legal authority/decisions, citizens arrest should be left only to those who maintain significant "Errors and Omissions" insurance policies specific to citizens arrest. Security companies, armored car personnel, private detectives, bounty hunters, private process servers, etc. Some general business liability policies allow coverage for limited citizens arrest by the policy holder(bars for their bouncers, mall security). Anyone who is covered by such a policy knows (or should know) the limitations of their coverage. Most are trained to be a good witnesses and leave arrest to LE.
Edward429451
Moderator
Practically speaking...
I think citizens arrest is for felony's commited in your presence only. Think about it. Then the law will fill em up with charges and the plea bargain
will yield some type of conviction and leave you safe from civil liability.
I think citizens arrest is for felony's commited in your presence only. Think about it. Then the law will fill em up with charges and the plea bargain
will yield some type of conviction and leave you safe from civil liability.People seem to think that the use of guns is inherent to a police officer's special authority to detain or make arrests. It's not. They have that authority whether armed or not.
Firearms to a cop are the same as firearms to a non-cop: a special self defense tool to be used under special circumstances. A cop's gun is not a tool to effect an arrest or other compliance; it is a tool to be used to defend the life of the cop or other innocent.
Further, arrest and detention are two different but related things. An arrest is a legal (not physical) state of being wherein the arrestee is legally obligated to comply with the state's judicial process. People are arrested all the time in this country without cuffs or even (sometimes) physical detention. It's called a citation. A demand to appear in court to answer certain criminal charges.
A detention may follow an arrest. Cuffs, search, sit in the back of the car, a trip to jail.
Now, as a citizen who witnesses a crime, you can certainly arrest a person by simply saying to them "you are under arrest." If they choose to stick arround to answer the charges, or if you choose to detain them are issues that have been answered by other posters.
Firearms to a cop are the same as firearms to a non-cop: a special self defense tool to be used under special circumstances. A cop's gun is not a tool to effect an arrest or other compliance; it is a tool to be used to defend the life of the cop or other innocent.
Further, arrest and detention are two different but related things. An arrest is a legal (not physical) state of being wherein the arrestee is legally obligated to comply with the state's judicial process. People are arrested all the time in this country without cuffs or even (sometimes) physical detention. It's called a citation. A demand to appear in court to answer certain criminal charges.
A detention may follow an arrest. Cuffs, search, sit in the back of the car, a trip to jail.
Now, as a citizen who witnesses a crime, you can certainly arrest a person by simply saying to them "you are under arrest." If they choose to stick arround to answer the charges, or if you choose to detain them are issues that have been answered by other posters.
California laws are often goofy, but citizen's arrest is pretty must straightforward.
You can arrest someone for a public offense committed or attempted in your presence; when the person arrested has committed a felony (which does not have to be committed in your presence); and when you know a felony has been committed and you have "reasonable cause" for believing the person arrested comitted the felony. (section 837)
Which means you have to see a misdemeanor occur, but not a felony. For felonies, however, you have to know it really happened and you can arrest someone with reasonable cause for a felony not in your presence -- such as seeing them in a holdup photo or seeing them standing over a down man while holding a bloody baseball bat.
You can call for others to help you (but they're not duty bound to do so) under section 839.
If you arrest someone, you best know what you're arresting them for. You're required to tell them of your intention to arrest them and why. Layman's terms are ok -- "for kicking that guy's face" -- and you have to tell them under what authority (State of California penal code) you're making it. The exception is when you have reasonable cause to believe that the arrestee is actually committing or attempting to commit an offense, or the arrestee is pursued immediately after its commission, or after an escape. The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being arrested. (Sect. 841)
Any person making an arrest may take from the person arrested all offensive weapons which he may have about his person, and must deliver them to the magistrate before whom he is taken. (Sect. 846)
If you arrest someone for the commission of a public offense you must, without unnecessary delay, take the person arrested before a magistrate, or deliver him or her to a peace officer.
(Sect. 847)
You can arrest someone for a public offense committed or attempted in your presence; when the person arrested has committed a felony (which does not have to be committed in your presence); and when you know a felony has been committed and you have "reasonable cause" for believing the person arrested comitted the felony. (section 837)
Which means you have to see a misdemeanor occur, but not a felony. For felonies, however, you have to know it really happened and you can arrest someone with reasonable cause for a felony not in your presence -- such as seeing them in a holdup photo or seeing them standing over a down man while holding a bloody baseball bat.
You can call for others to help you (but they're not duty bound to do so) under section 839.
If you arrest someone, you best know what you're arresting them for. You're required to tell them of your intention to arrest them and why. Layman's terms are ok -- "for kicking that guy's face" -- and you have to tell them under what authority (State of California penal code) you're making it. The exception is when you have reasonable cause to believe that the arrestee is actually committing or attempting to commit an offense, or the arrestee is pursued immediately after its commission, or after an escape. The person making the arrest must, on request of the person he is arresting, inform the latter of the offense for which he is being arrested. (Sect. 841)
Any person making an arrest may take from the person arrested all offensive weapons which he may have about his person, and must deliver them to the magistrate before whom he is taken. (Sect. 846)
If you arrest someone for the commission of a public offense you must, without unnecessary delay, take the person arrested before a magistrate, or deliver him or her to a peace officer.
(Sect. 847)