Jamie Young
New member
I want to go shooting tomorrow and I only have 40rds. I need a cheat sheet so I don't waste too many rounds. I'll be shooting out to 500yds. And Don't tell me to look on the bottom of the box!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chrono data for Federal Match 168gr out of an FAL?
- Thread starter Jamie Young
- Start date
I shot my FAL at 600 yards last weekend. Funny thing was, groups with the 168gr match ammo were no better than the groups I got with my surplus Hirtenberger. (12-18" at 600)
I didn't chrony them, but I used 2600 fps (20" barrel) when I did the ballistics calcs and dialed in the scope, I was on paper (standard nat match target) with those numbers.
Your mileage may vary
I didn't chrony them, but I used 2600 fps (20" barrel) when I did the ballistics calcs and dialed in the scope, I was on paper (standard nat match target) with those numbers.
Your mileage may vary
There is nothing unusual about match ammo not doing particularly well in certain rifles.
Match Winchester and Federal gave me .95MOA out of my scoped Argie FAL while Portugese milsupr gave me .5MOA (much to my surprise). The rest of the milsurp gave me the usual 1.5-2.5 MOA one would suspect.
Does that mean Port milsurp is for you?
No. It means that my harmonics matched the port better than it matched the factory stuff. I advise that you buy small quantities of different ammo as we did and test it yourself. Some will be better than others. But don't expect .5MOA
TimW may post our findings when he gets around to it.
Rick
PS, we will chrony all of our blammo next weekend.
Match Winchester and Federal gave me .95MOA out of my scoped Argie FAL while Portugese milsupr gave me .5MOA (much to my surprise). The rest of the milsurp gave me the usual 1.5-2.5 MOA one would suspect.
Does that mean Port milsurp is for you?
No. It means that my harmonics matched the port better than it matched the factory stuff. I advise that you buy small quantities of different ammo as we did and test it yourself. Some will be better than others. But don't expect .5MOA
TimW may post our findings when he gets around to it.
Rick
PS, we will chrony all of our blammo next weekend.
Here's the data I have for FGM168gr from FALs.
For a full length barrel, I get an average of 2539 (sd 13) for one FAL, and 2628 (sd 3.5) for another FAL. FWIW, another day, I got an average of 2587 (sd 3.7) on one of those rifles - from possibly a different batch of FGM168.
For an 18" barrel, I get an average of 2513 (sd 9.3).
Even though I am a pretty primitive reloader, I can get better groups with 150gr reloads, slightly downloaded (2600fps), than FGM168. The best I have gotten with FGM is a 1.5 MOA group at 50m. The best I have gotten with my handloads is 1.1 MOA at 50m. (I use 5-shot groups.)
Hope this helps.
-z
For a full length barrel, I get an average of 2539 (sd 13) for one FAL, and 2628 (sd 3.5) for another FAL. FWIW, another day, I got an average of 2587 (sd 3.7) on one of those rifles - from possibly a different batch of FGM168.
For an 18" barrel, I get an average of 2513 (sd 9.3).
Even though I am a pretty primitive reloader, I can get better groups with 150gr reloads, slightly downloaded (2600fps), than FGM168. The best I have gotten with FGM is a 1.5 MOA group at 50m. The best I have gotten with my handloads is 1.1 MOA at 50m. (I use 5-shot groups.)
Hope this helps.
-z
Ammo performance from FALs, Scoped/Unscoped
It was a warm and sunny Sunday morning…bright, not a cloud in the sky. Your typical May 6 in Phoenix. RickD and I decided to test the accuracy of milsurp ammo in our FALs. This seemed a perfect day to do it.
The temperature started in the low 70's at about 08:00 and got to the low 90's by the end of the shooting day, around 14:00. Winds were non-existent in the morning, but started
gusting around 11:30-12:00 hard enough to raise "crime scene tape" streamers to about a 45 degree angle. However, since the wind was consistently from our 6:00 o'clock position,
this wasn't a concern. Shooting, done at the Ben Avery range (for those who know it), was conducted at 100 yards.
The first set of tests were conducted using Rick's Argentine FAL with a 21" barrel and a Leupold Vari-X II 2-7x33 compact scope on a DSA mount and ARS trigger job (about 4-5 pounds). The second set was from my AzExArms StG 58 built on an Imbel Gear Logo receiver, no trigger job (about 9 pounds). All shooting was done in 3 shot strings, two strings per ammo "brand" on two different targets. Shooting was done from a sandbag on top of a 50-cal ammo can under the forearm and a sandbag/handhold for the rear. No shooting was conducted from my FAL's bipod.
The shooting strings were shot within about 2 minutes for 3 shots, with a 25 minute break between the strings (the range is on a timer for patching/pulling targets). Only 3 rounds
were loaded in the magazine at a time. TimW did all the shooting for this test.
Finally, since we have found that sometimes the dealers don't know what the ammo is they are selling, I have listed them by Headstamp and what we think it is. For example, one local Phoenix dealer is selling FNM ammo as "Spanish", when FNM is of Portuguese manufacture. If we are incorrect as to the designation, we would appreciate corrections.
Set 1 - RickD's Argentine FAL w/ Leupold 2-7x33 compact scope, ARS trigger job
Headstamp String 1 String 2
F-78-39 - Portuguese 1-3/8" n/a
HO/HD - sold as both Port and Malaysian 0-3/4 1-3/4
(But is Singaporean surplus)
RG (Radway Green, UK) 2-1/2 2-1/2
FNM 80-11 - Portuguese 0-1/2 0-1/2
Cavim 91 - Venezuela 3-1/2 3
Set 2 - Tim's AzExArms StG-58, open sights, no trigger job
Headstamp String 1 String 2
F-78-39 - Portuguese n/a n/a
HO/HD - sold as both Port and Malaysian 3-1/2 4
(acutally Singaporean surplus)
RG (Radway Green, UK) 3 2-1/4
FNM 80-11 - Portuguese 3-3/8 2-3/4
Cavim 91 - Venezuela 3-1/2 3-3/4
I did not record the shots RickD made with his FAL using Winchester and Federal match ammo, however they were all sub-MOA in the area of about 0-3/4". Very impresive.
So, thos ewho say FALs are not capable of sub-moa performance are wrong. RickD and I have seen it. As RickD says and any serious reloader can tell you, it's a matter of matching the ammo to the barrel's harmonics. This is the principle behind the BOSS system...only you match the barrel to the ammo instead of the other way around. Makes sense to me....perhaps I'll have my FAL's muzzle break replaced with a BOSS....
There you have it. Hope this helps.
Oh, for those in Phoenix who want a chuckle, Bear Arms is selling the FNM ammo, calling it "Spanish" and charging about $4.50 per 20 rounds....
TimW
Phoenix
It was a warm and sunny Sunday morning…bright, not a cloud in the sky. Your typical May 6 in Phoenix. RickD and I decided to test the accuracy of milsurp ammo in our FALs. This seemed a perfect day to do it.
The temperature started in the low 70's at about 08:00 and got to the low 90's by the end of the shooting day, around 14:00. Winds were non-existent in the morning, but started
gusting around 11:30-12:00 hard enough to raise "crime scene tape" streamers to about a 45 degree angle. However, since the wind was consistently from our 6:00 o'clock position,
this wasn't a concern. Shooting, done at the Ben Avery range (for those who know it), was conducted at 100 yards.
The first set of tests were conducted using Rick's Argentine FAL with a 21" barrel and a Leupold Vari-X II 2-7x33 compact scope on a DSA mount and ARS trigger job (about 4-5 pounds). The second set was from my AzExArms StG 58 built on an Imbel Gear Logo receiver, no trigger job (about 9 pounds). All shooting was done in 3 shot strings, two strings per ammo "brand" on two different targets. Shooting was done from a sandbag on top of a 50-cal ammo can under the forearm and a sandbag/handhold for the rear. No shooting was conducted from my FAL's bipod.
The shooting strings were shot within about 2 minutes for 3 shots, with a 25 minute break between the strings (the range is on a timer for patching/pulling targets). Only 3 rounds
were loaded in the magazine at a time. TimW did all the shooting for this test.
Finally, since we have found that sometimes the dealers don't know what the ammo is they are selling, I have listed them by Headstamp and what we think it is. For example, one local Phoenix dealer is selling FNM ammo as "Spanish", when FNM is of Portuguese manufacture. If we are incorrect as to the designation, we would appreciate corrections.
Set 1 - RickD's Argentine FAL w/ Leupold 2-7x33 compact scope, ARS trigger job
Headstamp String 1 String 2
F-78-39 - Portuguese 1-3/8" n/a
HO/HD - sold as both Port and Malaysian 0-3/4 1-3/4
(But is Singaporean surplus)
RG (Radway Green, UK) 2-1/2 2-1/2
FNM 80-11 - Portuguese 0-1/2 0-1/2
Cavim 91 - Venezuela 3-1/2 3
Set 2 - Tim's AzExArms StG-58, open sights, no trigger job
Headstamp String 1 String 2
F-78-39 - Portuguese n/a n/a
HO/HD - sold as both Port and Malaysian 3-1/2 4
(acutally Singaporean surplus)
RG (Radway Green, UK) 3 2-1/4
FNM 80-11 - Portuguese 3-3/8 2-3/4
Cavim 91 - Venezuela 3-1/2 3-3/4
I did not record the shots RickD made with his FAL using Winchester and Federal match ammo, however they were all sub-MOA in the area of about 0-3/4". Very impresive.
So, thos ewho say FALs are not capable of sub-moa performance are wrong. RickD and I have seen it. As RickD says and any serious reloader can tell you, it's a matter of matching the ammo to the barrel's harmonics. This is the principle behind the BOSS system...only you match the barrel to the ammo instead of the other way around. Makes sense to me....perhaps I'll have my FAL's muzzle break replaced with a BOSS....
There you have it. Hope this helps.
Oh, for those in Phoenix who want a chuckle, Bear Arms is selling the FNM ammo, calling it "Spanish" and charging about $4.50 per 20 rounds....
TimW
Phoenix