Christmas straw man

C

cold dead hands

Moderator
Hubby knows what he wants (from the gun store of course) for Xmas and wifey wants to get him something he will cherish.

He fills out the 4473 and is approved. Wifey whips out her Visa to pay.

Is that a straw man purchase? Have they ignorantly attempted to break the law in any way?
 
Every x-mas my wife buys me a gun :cool:
Every time I explained what we were doing and I am always told the one that pays has to fill out the paper work.
I dunno about the other 49 states
 
It's only a straw purchase if the person really getting the gun isn't allowed to get it or if the person doing the purchase is doing so to trap the dealer at the behest of Mayor Bloomberg.
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Fixed it for ya.
 
It's only a straw purchase if the person really getting the gun isn't allowed to get it.
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Are you sure thats right? If that is the case could my 21 year old friend buy a handgun for me as I am 20 and can legally own and posses a handgun, but I cannot buy them from an FFL.
 
CDFT said:
It's only a straw purchase if the person really getting the gun isn't allowed to get it.
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Not true. It doesn't matter if the person can legally possess the firearm or not. If the person filling out the 4473 is not the purchaser, it is a straw purchase.
 
cold dead hands said:
Hubby knows what he wants (from the gun store of course) for Xmas and wifey wants to get him something he will cherish.

He fills out the 4473 and is approved. Wifey whips out her Visa to pay.

Is that a straw man purchase? Have they ignorantly attempted to break the law in any way?
Click to expand...

Technically, it is a violation since the person filling out the 4473 is not the actual purchaser.

It would be legal however, for the wife to fill out the paperwork, pay for the purchase and then give it to her husband as a gift. The instructions for the 4473 cover purchases made for gifts.
 
EOD Guy is right.

Let the wife buy it. There's usually no problem with an intrafamily transfer between husband and wife.
 
Gift

Buying a firearm as a gift is legal, and not a straw man purchase. One has to follow the rules for the paperwork, but if done properly, it is entirely legal, everywhere, under federal law.

You may have to go through some additional paperwork under some state laws to ensure the recipient of the gift meets all state laws (FOID, pistol permit, etc.), but there is a legal process for doing it.

Not all dealers are as aware of the details as they could be, but they are aware of the danger to them of allowing "strawman" purchases, and will shy away from anyting that looks risky to them, so you may have to do some explaining to make them feel comfortable. And do it up front. If a dealer is unsure, have him look it up. Once he is familiar with the rules, and which paperwork must be filled out (and how), you should have no trouble.

If you want to avoid any appearance of impropriety, simply have wifey give hubby the cash at home before going to the gun shop, or have wifey (who meets all the legal requirements) buy the gun herself, filling out the forms herself, and then give it to hubby later (like under the tree).

As long as hubby is legal to own the gun (and state laws are also followed), there should be no problem.
 
I have just tried to look up this case to see how it should work and it really sounds crazy. It appears that it would be an illegal purchase but totally defeats the purpose of the form 4473. The purpose of the NICS and form 4473 should be to determine if the actual owner/user of the gun is legally allowed to have it but in this case it doesn't seem to work.

From what I can tell that if the wife gives the husband the money to buy it or a gift certificate before they leave for the store then he should fill out the 4473. However if they wait until they get to the store then she has to fill out the form. What if they used her VISA card but he signed the receipt, (We do that quite often, my children using my credit card), would that affect who the purchaser is? Also does it matter who actually pays the VISA bill when it comes in, my wife writes all the checks. :o In my opinion, which means absolutely nothing, the person being run through the NICS should be the one who will wind up with the gun regardless of who pays for it but that doesn't seem to be the case. Dang this is confusing. :confused:

About the question on the 20 year old it appears that a 21 year old can buy a gun and give it to a 20 year old as long as the 20 year old doesn't pay the 21 year old for it. :eek:
 
The person who pays has to fill out the form. I've seen more than one gun buyer corrected when they tried to do it the way you describe.
 
One day, many moons ago, my wife wanted a pistol like the one she used to have back in her childhood days. (she wouldn't let me get my P-11 unless she got a gun too)

We went to all of the local gun stores (all three of 'em), and she settled on a SP-101 in .357. The only question the gun guy asked was who had a CWP? Since I did, he let me fill out the 4473 and pay for the pistol, whereupon I immediately gave to the wife.

I asked him about that and he said that if no one had had a CWP, then he would have let the wife fill out the paperwork (and get the NICS check) and pay for it. As it was, I had the CWP, which meant no NICS check and I had to pay for it. What happened, as husband and wife, after that point was not his business.

It is not illegal for one spouse to gift the gun to the other spouse. Even immediately after the purchase.
 
Actually, the law says:


It shall be unlawful --

(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or
attempted acquisition of any firearm . . . from a . . .
licensed dealer . . . knowingly to make any false or
fictitious oral or written statement . . . intended or
likely to deceive such . . . dealer . . . with respect to
any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other
disposition of such firearm . . . .
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18 U.S.C. section 922(a)(6)

A straw purchase is defined right on the 4473 as:

WARNING--The sale or delivery of a firearm by a licensee to
an eligible purchaser who is acting as an agent,
intermediary or "straw purchaser" for someone whom the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is
ineligible to purchase a firearm directly, may result in a
violation of the Federal firearms laws.

So a wife buying her husband a firearm as a gift is legal, as long as he is not prohibited from the purchase himself.

A 21 year old buying a pistol for a 20 year old is not legal, because the 21 year old is not legally able to make the purchase himself.

Since many FFL holders do not know the law themselves, and considering that the ATF has them scared out of their wits, good luck finding an FFL that will complete the sale.
 
What if Im selling a used gun to a private party, how would I know if the buyer is an eligible purchaser?
Could I get in trouble for that or is it only problem if Im a licensed dealer.
Of coarse I would sell any of my guns
 
As a general rule of our house, what happens in our home stays in our home. That said we don't have "mine and yours" anything (except clothes). We are both legal and WE own every gun, car, computer, television, dog, etc. in our home.

Now my father-in-law (also legal) loves to shoot prairie dogs on his farm. He has used his .270 deer rifle for years. Last year in November (coincidentally 2 days before his birthday) I bought a .17 HMR and decided to store it at his house. I have never gotten around to shooting it, he borrows it regularly and loves it. ;)
 
the person who pays is the person who fills out the 4473. Now, if he gives it to someone else as a gift after the fact, then he's legal. If the person he gives it to pays him, then it was a straw purchase.
 
Noted felon G. Gordon Liddy says that his wife has a very nice gun collection. He says it right on the radio, and you can almost hear the wink.

This whole effort to keep guns from ineligible people is a waste of time, and they sure do fight hard when asked to destroy the records.
 
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