Choosing the right load

H

harry mudd

Moderator
I have a Ruger sp101 with the snubby barrel. As always i tested different loads into wet-pack to verify their functionality in this particular firearm. From the several loads I had tested I chose the 110 gr. Winchester jhp for regular carry. I picked this round for a couple of reasons, lighter recoil being one. Another reason was because i thought that it would be less likely to perforate the target and travel down the street. The third reason was because of the devastating hole blasted into the wet-pack as compared to the other loads. The damage was impressive. There was a hole i could put my hand into and newspaper flying all over the place. The bullet had fragmented into many pieces and left a splash mark like it had hit butter. I wiped wet newsprint off my face and tried several more shots. They all gave the same result, a crater i could fit my fist into up to my wrist, centered on a swollen circle of cracks about 10 inches across. Now upon reading many sites i find that none of these things were good results! Penetration was probably about eight inches (not enough) and weight retention of the projectile was very low (complete catastrophic skirt separation, maybe 10 pieces in all). I read that this is lousy performance in spite of the fact that from the damage I witnessed no human being could possibly survive one shot. Can someone explain to me how I should choose a load if the destruction at the terminal end does not have any correlation to stopping power? From what i am reading a stick of dynamite would have a lousy one shot stop rating. I am a simple man, and I just don't understand.
 
For years the 125gr Federal JHP factory load has been reported as the best defensive load for the .357 mag. Years ago there was a book by Evan Marshall with documented one shot stops and that load came in at 92%. take that info for what it's worth. Hope that helps. I have no data to back it up just what was printed. I do carry it when I carry my sp101 but have not shot it in a defensive situation.

Joe C
Retired Sgt
Monticello NY PD
 
Good carry-protection loads for the Ruger SP101...

The Ruger SP101 DA or DA only stainless revolver is a great pick for CC, protection or as a duty 2nd gun/BUG(back-up). ;)
A DA only snub SP101 was my 1st handgun in late 1993.
As for good rounds, I'd suggest the Buffalo Bore 158gr lead SWC-HP +P in .38spl. It has good vel and expands well for a .38spl. The Speer Gold Dot 135gr JHP +P .38spl, the Corbon DPX .38spl round, the Winchester Ranger T .38spl, the Golden Saber 110gr JHP +P .38spl, the Golden Saber 125gr JHP .357magnum or the 110gr JHP .357magnum round. The Magsafe .38spl +P SWAT load could be useful for some applications(back-up, home protection).

As for the Evan Marshall/Edwin Sanow records, some members here may dispute the numbers but most documented shootings/research shows the 125gr JHP .357magnum works very well. But, keep in mind that was based on 4"/6" law enforcement duty weapons not a 2.25" Ruger SP101 size revolver.

Muzzle flash, noise and recoil are issues too. That's why I'd look into a +P or +P+ .38spl with a factory made .357magnum JHP in speed strips or speedloaders.
 
I don't put much stock in the one stop percentages. I feel it's all very subjective in how you interpret data when comparing the major calibers.
 
Thanks to all for your responses! So i should rely on the statistics rather than proving a load in real world testing? I did try the .357 loads mentioned. The 158gr traveled completely through my bucket lengthwise, through 2 inches of oak backing and into my floor knocking the crap out of a floor joist before dropping onto the dirt below. (safety violation.... be sure of your backstop!) It didn't expand. The 125gr did do well but nothing like the 110gr. I suppose that it was my childish and immature joy at the gruesome and ridiculous explosive impact of the 110gr that impressed me so much. All the others did damage deeper and inside the test medium. I actually considered not carrying this gun at all, for humanitarian reasons. On seeing the results my wife asked me why i even bought such a thing! I explained that we could be attacked by a horse, or even a cow. It could happen! Maybe I should do some testing with .38 specials. Thanks for the ideas!
 
First, you need to understand that a round's performance in wet newspaper is not the same as a round's performance in animal tissue. Wet newspaper will open up the bullet very quickly, and cause the paper to fly apart where it would cause much less traumatic damage in the more elastic tissue of an animal or human attacker. Shooting wet newspaper and phonebooks is fun, and and provides a best case (or worst case) example of a projectile's potential for expansion.

Rapid expansion is good. Uncontrolled fragmentation (jacket/core separation) is bad. If the projectile sheds bits of itself as it travels through the target, it loses mass, and therefore momentum. This causes it to penetrate less, and penetration is more important than expansion. If you don't hit deep enough, it doesn't matter how big your bullet mushrooms to. Destroying tissue is not the goal; destroying the right tissue is. That tissue—the heart, lungs, and, most important, nerve—lies deep and protected. The projectile that spends it's energy too quickly will not get the job done.

As far as the Marshall and Sanow "One Shot Stop" percentages are concerned, there are flaws with methodology of that research that renders it controversial at best. Search these forums, and you will find many heated discussions on the matter. Expand your search to Google, and you should be quickly overwhelmed. I will not say that the findings therein are worthless, but it is far from the last word on the subject. None of the controversy over various methods of performance testing negates the worthiness of the standard 125gr. defensive loads, as they do seem to perform at the top of the class by most accepted measures. Your chosen 110gr. load is less well accepted, but is generally well enough regarded, certainly in warm climates where clothing is not so thick. The good news is that, in time of real need, you will likely not see the kind of jacket separation that you find in wet newspaper. Probably.
 
Jello Junkies vs Morgue Monsters...

Noted tactics instructor, sworn LE officer and legal use of force expert Massad F Ayoob wrote a few years ago how many carry-duty loads are picked by either ; Jello Junkies(those who use test media/T&Es) and Morgue Monsters(those who go by documented shootings-case files). Strong arguements can be made for each side. I prefer to buy/carry a proven handgun caliber round based on real world events. If a major state or local LE agency issues/uses a JHP or round for years with good results, it is a choice you could use for your firearm.
Test media(wet paper, plastic jugs, Jello blocks, etc) may be fun to shoot but they are not shooting back or actively trying to kill you, ;).
 
as with any gun.....

First it MUST go bang.

It must do so with controllable accuracy.

Other stuff.....

So it's really up to you.
 
Plus one on Clydefrog's remarks....real world, documented shooting incidents make sense to me....as do recommendations from friends in the LE community.

That said, here is a pic of my research into expansion with a 2" S&W .38 Special. All factory loads were +P. The bullets and captions depicted show actual, chronographed velocities as produced by a 2" S&W Airweight.

All were shot into water from a distance of 10' or so. (A swimming pool) While water does not adequately reproduce the results of a flesh and blood shooting, it does allow a comparison between various factory loadings and one handload. I forgot to add the Hydra-shok's velocity to the caption...840 fps, and never did get around to chrono'ing the Silver Tip.

Based on the above testing, and the recommendations of two police officers and one FBI agent, I load our SD revolvers with Remington's Golden Saber 129 gr JHP round.

Rodfac

P8181567.jpg
 
First, I think the original poster was talking about the 357Mag version of the Winchester 110 load. The 38+P version wouldn't produce those kinds of effects.

In 357Magnum, you do NOT have to be as picky about your ammo as you do in 38+P. Seriously.

Next, what the original poster has chosen is a lightweight, somewhat high-energy load of about 450ft/lbs energy from his gun. Not as "punchy" as some loads but a good "splat effect". I've more or less gone a similar direction: I shoot a 125gr slug based on the Gold Dot driven up past 750ft/lbs (Doubletap Ammo). I also shoot it out of a 42oz gun because it *recoils*.

The original poster is throwing down a lot more power than most CCWers. That's just plain fact. More than 9mm from compact barrel lengths, way more than the 38+P.

That load and gun will probably do just fine.
 
I am still reading replies with much interest. I have a handfull of spent bullets similar to rodfac, with very similar results. I do want to carry an effective round that works as expected. This would reduce the number of rounds I might need to launch, if nothing else. I know that if you shoot then you intend to kill, i just wonder if it is good form when the bad guy bursts into flames and flies into pieces. Is there more liability involved depending on the gun a person shoots with?
 
I know that if you shoot then you intend to kill…
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When you shoot defensively, your intention should not be to kill, it should be to stop the attack. While the attacker's death is a real and accepted possibility (such are the stakes of his chosen profession), it is not the end goal. The end goal is to save your life by stopping a deadly attack.
…i just wonder if it is good form when the bad guy bursts into flames and flies into pieces. Is there more liability involved depending on the gun a person shoots with?
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These questions are debated all of the time. The reality is that, while there are some freakishly powerful small guns (yours is not one of them), most handguns that most people are going to be carrying for self defense are simply not capable of the massive destruction that you fear. This includes your gun. Many police agencies in the past have carried .357 Magnum revolvers, so any DA who attempted to convince a jury that your chosen gun was needlessly powerful would probably be up against it. Also, Providing you use factory loads or legal ammunition typical of commercially available offerings, your choice of ammo will probably not be a factor.
 
As to liability:

The most common police loads involve 40S&W loads delivering 500 to 550ft/lbs energy. You're well underneath that. Forget the word "magnum" - you are in very good shape.

I'm delivering almost 800ft/lbs energy. I'm prepared to defend that but I full well understand the issues.

Despite both of us carrying "357 Magnums", we're actually in different worlds when it comes to legal use of (how much) force issues.
 
As long as we are being serious...

can the shooter shoot?

What would you prefer, Sir? A wimp 38 target load center mass or a 5 tons of foot lbs. of energy distributed to a empty enemy mailbox? The choice is yours.
 
What would you prefer, Sir? A wimp 38 target load center mass or a 5 tons of foot lbs. of energy distributed to a empty enemy mailbox? The choice is yours.
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Not if the shooter can shoot either load equally well. Just 'cause you can't, doesn't mean others can't.

I'd carry those 110 grain .357's without any doubt at all. I shot a heckuva lot of them back in the 80's, and they're certainly effective.

They won't penetrate any kind of barrier without fragmenting, but they do a number on medium sized game.

If a perp is hit in the chest with them, the perp is done. The End.

Daryl
 
warningshot, huh? I don't understand your post. Enemy mailbox? I am not being obtuse, I really don't understand what you are trying to say. I am new here so if enemy mailbox is a metaphor i don't know what it represents. Yes i can shoot. I think that five tons of foot lbs is a lot, that's why i rejected the 158gr jhp loads. I could choose to place one .22 cci stinger into an eye socket from a reasonable distance. That would do the job, I have .22's, a.380, a 9mm, a .38 special and several .45's of various makes. All of them will do the job. if i did want five tons applied to a mailbox, i would bring out the 12ga with three inch magnums..... (actually a pint of black powder does a mailbox REAL well!) All these choices are mine. Right now i am playing with my .357 magnum and trying to learn its in's and out's. Please restate your point in plainer terms so a simple man can understand.
 
I explained that we could be attacked by a horse,
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Well, I was attacked by my horse the other morning, picking his hoof, but I didn't have my gun with me!:D

HUH!!

But there was a guy on another thread from arizona, who was serious and said he was afraid of being attacked by wild burros or mustangs!

Yeah, that is why i pack around the ranch. In case my wild BLM burro goes berzerk on me!:eek:
 
SP101 carry loads..

Some TFL members have posted remarks I take issue with, but they are entitled to their views.
I think it's important to bear in mind that this is a Ruger snub .357magnum. Recoil, muzzle flash, blast, etc should be considered for a decent carry round. That is why I pushed for a factory made .38spl +P or +P+ over a full house .357magnum JHP.
Can a 125gr JHP .357mag protect you? Yes! Will it be the 1st or "best" choice for a DA/DA only J frame or SP101? I say nyetski, ;).
Federal, Corbon, Remington, Speer-CCI etc sell quality .357 magnum loads made FOR short barrel/snub revolvers. These companies want to make $$$. Surprise!

For a CC, BUG/2nd gun or other application a snub .38spl/.357magnum may need to fired one handed, while injured or wounded or where a powerful magnum round may not be ideal. The smart choice would be a .38spl +P with .357magnum rounds in reserve.
When the balloon goes up or as my old platoon leader told us in a field exercise; when a firefight starts you need to act quickly and aggressively.
 
Any .357 round is going to do irreparable damage in the k zone. It just doesn't matter. Perhaps a lighter, faster round is going to make someone feel better, but anything coming out of that barrel is going to be devastating; including ball rounds. As to peripheral hits, who knows?
 
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