Choosing the right Ammo

M

mikthestick

New member
Getting the bullets on target is the first priority.
Next is what you are shooting, I'm talking bullet type not caliber here.
I may have bored many people with my views on stopping power, the formulas and their value. Now I propose to use one to demonstrate HOW THEY CAN BE MISLEADING and at the same time show why I think Full Metal Jacket or semi wad cutters are the best all round choice.

Few would disagree that the 45 auto 230gr at 812ft/sec gives all the firepower most people will ever need so lets take that as a given, remmember this post is about ammo. This round is rated at 60 with 0 expansion, 135 with 1.5 expansion, 183 with 1.75 expansion. FMJ rounds will expand/deform when they hit something, by how much is difficult/imposable to determine. It is safe to say expansion will usually be small. Hollow Point rounds can expand to over 1.75 diameters the problem is AS EXPANSION INCREASES PENETRATION DECREASES. Penetration potential for the above conditions are 2106, 1148, and 842 respectively. These figures imply the penetration at 1.75 expansion is reduced to about a third. So you don't get three times the stopping power unless perhaps if both types of bullet go right through the target.

In the real world a 45 auto FMJ or HP would dispatch a jackrabbit Pretty Damn Quick. If a Bear had been the target a nasty superficial wound which did not go deep enough to get at the vitals would be the probable result. A policeman shooting at a windscreen with an HP round could result in a penetration however that penetration will arrive on target with less power and less penetration potential than the FMJ. Expanding bullets are (I think) best used for hunting, and then you must make sure the expected penetration will penetrate far enough to reach the animals vitals.
 
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It is for this reason that my EDC magazine is loaded with a two to one ratio of hollow point and hard ball. (two hollow points to one hard ball.)
 
"...stopping power, the formulas..." There's no such thing as stopping power with any firearm. The formulas were invented long, long ago to prove a point with arithmetic. All of 'em have long been disproved.
Even a rabbit will survive a poorly placed .45 Ball or HP. Any cop who shoots at a moving vehicle's windshield pretending he's going to stop said 1 ton plus vehicle shouldn't be allowed to carry a sharp stick, never mind a firearm. Physics will not allow it. So the bullet he uses doesn't matter.
 
I think a rabbit could escape form from a poorly place 45 auto round, I would very much doubt its ability to survive. I didn't say the windscreen was moving, I'm sure police have had reason to shoot at people who are in or behind parked cars. If the HP round hit a car door (metal then upholstry) If it penetrated (not guaranteed) I say again it would arrive with less power and much less penetration potential.
Thank you for replying to my post. I accept you do not believe in these formulas. I too believe some (not all) to be useless.
Let me ask you a question do you disagree or find fault with what I have written.
 
Your theory MIGHT have been relevant 50 years ago. Today's HP bullets give adequate penetration AND expansion. It is no longer an either or proposition.

Forget the goofy math, this theory was put to rest decades ago by real world street performance.
 
Having no idea where you numbers came from,, or what kind of scale was used, they mean nothing to me. All I will say is that they follow the logic of one factor decreasing as the other increases.

This is not news.

FWIW, both FMJ and JHP bullets in classic auto pistol defensive calibers are notoriously poor performers on small game. It has nothing to do with the energy of the round, but in how it is transmitted.

Shoot a rabbit with a 9mm, or .45, and you generally get a 9mm or .45 caliber hole through the rabbit. JHPs designed for people do not open up. And the round nose/pointed profile of the bullets transfers less shock to the tissue than the flat point/SWC bullet profile common to many lead revolver bullets.

As to the police example, ANY bullet that has to get through any barrier will have less potential power and penetration than one that does not. The biggest thing about shooting through a windshield is the angle. Bullets penetrating an angled barrier often do not continue in the same straight line. And, on top of that is the diffraction factor, where you see (and aim) is not necessarily exactly where the target is.

The key to any ammo doing its job correctly, or most effectively is in choosing what ammo is best for the anticipated conditions. No, something designed to blow up a varmint isn't a good choice for stopping a bear.

Bullet expansion is possibly one of the most over-rated "necessities" of modern ammo. Lots of game is taken, and people stopped by non-expanding bullets. Done right, they do work. In some cases, an expanding bullet can be a critical factor, but a bad hit with a JHP (whose bullet performs perfectly) is still a bad hit.

RN or pointed non expanding bullets have long been proven to be the least efficient at transferring energy or damaging tissue. Doesn't mean they don't work, just that under the same conditions, expanding bullets tend to work better.

If your choice cartridge's penetration is marginal for the intended task (with any bullet), you should choose a different cartridge.

And, in my opinion, if penetration is adequate with a non-expanding bullet but marginal with an expanding bullet, you should also choose a different cartridge.
 
For amp44 & jmr40

Maths isn't goofy. Though my presentation may be.:) (AMP44) I can't disagree with what you say. What I was trying to say was two bullets going through a car door one HP one FMJ, the HP round losses more energy and penetration potential than the FMJ. The HP will find it harder to penetrate the target because it is already expanded it may also have lost some percentage of its original weight and remaining velocity is likely less than the FMJ. The FMJ gets there faster probably with very little deformation or weight loss. I agree FMJ may be a poor stopper but I feel that when it reaches the target it would be better than the HP round (which is more likely to be stopped by a car body).

I gave calculated results without formula names because I wanted to talk ammo not maths. I regret my inability to use the English language to present the ideas in my head on paper. My friends all find it rather amusing.:D
 
I think I understand what you are getting at, with the car door, but you are making a couple of assumptions that may not actually apply.

First is that the hollowpoint will expand (and lose energy) on the car door. It may. It may not. This is the kind of thing that keeps bullet designers up at night. They are always looking for the best compromise that will perform properly under a WIDE variety of conditions.

Look back in time, to the dawn of the era of modern JHP handgun ammo. Performance was...erratic (or considered to be, because it was inconsistent in different situations).

Early designs might work fine in tissue, but not expand if they had to shoot though cloth. Any kind of barrier meant the JHP became an FMJ in actual performance. I remember one load that seemed to have potential, clothing didn't clog the hollowpoint, and it would expand. Howe'er there was a shooting where that bullet was stopped cold by a belt buckle.

We have come a long way since. Today we have JHPs that can be reasonable expected to penetrate some things, and still expand. We even have expanding FMJ these days.

Your reasoning is essentially sound, two bullets identical other than one expands and one does not, penetrate a barrier. The one that expands will have less energy. But this begs two questions. First will be difference be enough to matter? And second, (while it seems like the same question, it is actually a different question) "WILL it matter?"
 
Do you feel lucky?

Well I don't. So If I had to make an ammo choice your last post has just made that choice very much harder.

Learning is about listening to those who know better than yourself.

When I was a small boy watching old westerns and the sheriff was saved by a belt buckle or his badge I thought, make believe, because I didn't know any better back then. I long since learned belt buckles could save you.

You have changed my mind. My choice was made on what I thought I knew. Seeing the above statement in black and white makes me wonder how many unfortunates doing just that lost their lives because of it.

I now think I would test FMJ/wadcutters/and good quality HP rounds THEN MAKE A DESISION.:D Thank you mik.
 
Whenever possible, its best to test ammo, from your gun, in realistic situations. Not always possible, but best if you can, or can do some approximations.

What works on paper may not work in practice. What works in practice, generally works the same in the field.

Taking anyone's word for what works is a place to start, then test. As Reagan once said, "Trust, but verify.."

Good luck!
 
As with many I know in the shooting community, I'm no book of knowledge on guns, ammo or ballistics. So, I do far more reading and listening than I do posting and try to decide which of the theories and/or advice works for me. I continue to listen because ballistics results per caliber are constantly changing. I will say that I'm much in line with 45Gunner on mag loading regardless of which caliber I carry. First two out the barrel and that includes the one always in the tube, are JHPs followed then by every other round being an FMJ. Right now, my main emphasis is increasing my accuracy.
 
I don't think there's any appreciable difference in performance between the top shelf offerings from the major manufacturers. Speer, Winchester, Federal, Remington, Hornady...

They all make very fine ammo that'll serve well.
 
What I was trying to say was two bullets going through a car door one HP one FMJ, the HP round losses more energy and penetration potential than the FMJ. The HP will find it harder to penetrate the target because it is already expanded it may also have lost some percentage of its original weight and remaining velocity is likely less than the FMJ. The FMJ gets there faster probably with very little deformation or weight loss. I agree FMJ may be a poor stopper but I feel that when it reaches the target it would be better than the HP round (which is more likely to be stopped by a car body).
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Why would you assume that a hollow point round would be more likely stopped by a windshield or an auto body than a fmj? A bonded hollow point will be likely to stay together. A fmj might shed its jacket and fragment on a windshield.
 
And the sky might fall on my head.:D
OK now to be serious, I consider myself an expert in ballistics (at least in my country), weapons generally, and ancient Greeks in particular. That said remember I'm a Brit. I don't have the hands on experience of an American novice.

I believe FMJ rounds are the most reliable penetrators other than armour piercing rounds which I think were available in WW2 for your Garand rifle.
 
OK now to be serious, I consider myself an expert in ballistics (at least in my country), weapons generally, and ancient Greeks in particular. That said remember I'm a Brit. I don't have the hands on experience of an American novice.

I believe FMJ rounds are the most reliable penetrators other than armour piercing rounds which I think were available in WW2 for your Garand rifle.
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Maybe you can search the web and find some information on how FMJs (both rifle and handgun) perform on auto glass compared to a bonded bullet.
 
F.W.I.W.
I'm pretty experienced re: handgun bullets + penetration.
I did a lot of b-gel tests when I was fire arms training officer.
Todays bullets, such as the Hornady XTP expand & penetrate well in
all calibers 9mm and above.
On a personal note I shot 2 deer with 185 grain .45 a.c.p. h.p. bullets.
#1 dropped right now, struggled a bit, shot #2 ended it. Both bullets were recovered under the off side skin.
Rem. 185 +p H.P.
#2 shot with XTP 185 .45 a.c.p. at 45 paces d.r.t, pass thru, large exit hole, bullet took out spine.
Using .44 cap 'n ball revovler with r.b. I dispatched a squirrel. Bullet pass thru, critter ran 20 yardsshot thru both lungs & expired. Little tissue damage.
Same weapon/load, raccoon, Solid body hit, it ran 10/15 feet & expired. Little visible tissue damage.
Groundhog. Ruger Vaquero, load was 250 grain hard cast SWC. Hit critter, it ran off, thought I missed, it ran 50 some yards under a log. I hit it again.
It ran off a bit & stopped. Shot #3 dropped it. .45 Colt hard cast SWC at over 1,000 f.p.s. did little visible tissue damage.
The above f.w.i.w.
My Sgt. dispatched a person using a 2" bbl Colt using 125 grain +P loads.
Three shots, one in upper chest, two in left cheek bone.
I photo'd autopsy. Chest shot showed massive tissue damage & bleeding, was a mortal wound. Two in cheek bone sent bone & teeth into left lung!
Distance was maybe 10 feet. Gobblin died in the street from massive bleeding.

I don't even consider shooting at windshields or car doors in my retired defense mode. Thank you for reading.
I tought NEVER shoot at fleeing felon in a car!!!!! Duh!
Don't shoot at tires, windshields, armored doors. W.T.Heck?!:eek:
It's a HANDGUN, not a rifle, fleeing persons present no immediate danger most of the time.
If car is charging you...MOVE!:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
While what you're saying seems to be accurate, I don't understand what implications you might be trying to make. Are you suggesting that FMJ is better for all/most scenarios or simply that you should be choosing the most effective round based on your expected environment and desired outcome?
 
I spend a lot of time searching the web in order to increase my knowledge. In my original post I said I thought FMJ & wad cutters were my choice of ammo and why. This discussion has made me much less confident of my choice. Rather than imply it, I'll just say it.

I have read adverts for ammo, there are even adverts for ammo designed to take out Zombies, I'm not sure how serious these adverts are or if they have a real application. When people advertise stuff they tell you how good it is and how their ammo is better. I believe right or wrong that perhaps ammo salesmen are selling "magic bullets".

For sure I've learned more from this discussion than searching the web and/or reading adverts. Your opinions and experiences are shared without the need to sell. And yes I was suggesting FMJ as the best all round choice.
mik:)
 
FMJ is certainly cheaper than most other ammo types. I wonder why organizations, like the FBI, that do a lot of ballistics testing don't choose FMJ over other ammunition types? I wonder why state governments won't let us hunt game animals with FMJ?
 
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