Check my thinking here

S

ScotchMan

New member
So I have been researching a first centerfire rifle for some time. After going through this process with handguns (several times), I think I have the system nailed down pretty well. Start by defining the purpose.

Well, I'm not going to hunt. I have a .22 bolt action that I like, but I would like to shoot at longer range, and have something more defensible for a long-term SD situation. I have handguns but everyone knows you use the handgun to get to a long arm. So, long range target practice (but my range only goes to 200 yards), and turning away invading forces.

Next choose a caliber. This is where I've been stuck. I reload, and at this point, ease of handloading is a requirement in whatever I choose. I like .308 and 7mm-08, but I don't want to have to lube or trim cases, or clean primer pockets, or any of that. My pistol ammunition is relaxing and enjoyable to reload, and I fear reloading rifle calibers would turn into a chore.

I am pretty comfortable with a bolt-action setup, but would consider an AR if I get around the reloading bit above. Also I can only have 10 round mags in NYS, but I believe pre-ban AR mags are easy to come by, so that's another complication. I also find the lever gun concept appealing because it doesn't require mags. I really like Ruger and Savage, if not for the reloading bit above, a Ruger GSR or similar Savage w/ Accutrigger would fit the bill nicely.

Given all of this, lately I have been thinking the Ruger 77/357 is the right choice. I believe you can get reasonable performance at 200 yards from it, reloading would be simple, and it meets my requirements. I haven't seen any .357 lever guns I like (the Marlin 1894 seems like the only quality one and I just don't like the old-timey look and feel). I've fired a Rossi Rio Grande in 30-30, I liked that a lot but I don't think it comes in .357, and I'm unsure of the quality.

Am I compromising too much? Is there a rifle caliber that's as easy to handload as pistol calibers? Maybe the 44mag version would be a better compromise? If there's no way to get what I want out of a pistol carbine then I'll suck it up and reload rifle, but I think there's a good chance a .357 could meet my needs better. What do you think?
 
Given all of this, lately I have been thinking the Ruger 77/357 is the right choice.
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Yes! You will love it. I would say to get the 44 Mag if you plan on ever going hunting, but the 357 will do that too. Great thinking. Now you just have to pick a scope...
 
I may be way off base here but I'm having a hard time believing your going to get any kind of performance at all at 200 yards from a 357magnum. If I had to take a guess I'd say it should be good up to 100 yards but 200? I just don't see it.
 
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I'm having a hard time believing your going to get any kind of performance at all at 200 yards from a 357magnum.
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I shoot a 175 grain Ranch Dog bullet from my .357 levergun and push it out at 1596 fps from my Marlin 1894. It rings the 100 yard gong with authority, but I've never tried it at 200. I did run it through a ballistics program and learned that with that bullet and speed, it would still be carrying over 1000 fps at 200 yards, along with 457 fpe. Drop at 200 would be about a foot, but that's not much of a bother.

I wouldn't try to shoot gophers with it, but if I was aiming at something meaty and hit it with a 170 grain flat-nosed bullet at 1000 fps, it's going to leave a mark.

I wouldn't use it at that range for hunting and I'd try to limit my shots to 100 yards or less. It's not a rifle cartridge, it's a pistol cartridge in a rifle. Still, it might be fun to plink at 200 yards with a pistol-caliber rifle.
 
A 357 ain't a 200 yard cartridge, at least not on deer. Limit shots to around 100 or a bit more and I'd say OK.

I actually like your first thought of something like a 7-08 or 308 better. The 243 is an option as well as the 260. Now you have gun that will work as well from 3 yards to 300. You will find the rifles in those calibers are less expensive, more accurate, and easier to find. 308 ammo is often available factory loaded at very good prices. Fewer bargains in 7-08, although I think it is a very slightly better round, especially if you do handload.

Reloading rifle calibers is no harder than pistol calibers.
 
Well, I'm not going to hunt. I have a .22 bolt action that I like, but I would like to shoot at longer range, and have something more defensible for a long-term SD situation. I have handguns but everyone knows you use the handgun to get to a long arm. So, long range target practice (but my range only goes to 200 yards), and turning away invading forces.
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What invading forces? :confused:

.444 Marlin would give you better performance past 150 yards than a .357 lever rifle. .450 Marlin or .45-70 will give you even more power yet in a lever action. Plus they all fit into your ideas of a straight wall case simplistic approach.

A few things about reloading bottle neck cartridges.

#1. You really don't trim your cases all that much, when I use new brass I run the expander ball throught the mouth to uniform and then trim to length. As long as you aren't running hot loads you have very minimal case stretch. I usually run at least five reloads before I start checking case length again. If I buy once fired brass I full length resize and then trim.

#2. Lube like Hornady's One Shot spay is simple to use and it is pretty easy to do 50+ cases at one time in a load block/blocks. A lube pad is really quick and easy as well.

#3. Don't your primer pockets get dirty from shooting pistols as well? I don't reload for a pistol but I can't imagine not having to clean out the primer pockets every now and then as well in a pistol cartridge. I would think you would get carbon build up in the primer pocket as well.
 
I did run it through a ballistics program and learned that with that bullet and speed, it would still be carrying over 1000 fps at 200 yards, along with 457 fpe. Drop at 200 would be about a foot, but that's not much of a bother.
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Exactly. This sounds like a range toy. A 12" drop at 200 sounds fun. Like shooting a 257 Roberts at 300.
 
A CZ 527 American in .221 Rem Fireball, or .223 Rem

Plusses

1. Bolt action that is beyond butter smooth.
2. 5 round detatcable mag. If you want more of them I am sure you can pay CZ for them.
3. Beautiful walnut stock that is as near to flawless as you will find on a factory rifle
4. Insanely accurate even with factory loads. (Worst performing loads I have tested were still under MOA at 100 yards.
Brass life is long, and you can get a lot of firings out of the factory brass before needing to trim. I have 300 pieces that have over 15 firings on 1 trim.
5. You can shoot it all day without killing your shoulder.

Minuses
1. 100 pieces of new Remington brass is about $45 +/- up to $5 or so.
2. A Lee Collet die would have to be custom ordered from Lee so you are looking at about $50 for the die set.(In .221 Rem Fireball, if .223 a set will rund under $35 from most places.) (I Full length resize using lube. I tuble them for a half hour and they are good to go for the resot operation. )

I own a 527 American in .221 it is a joy to shoot. So far 99.9% of shooting has been at 100 yards or less. At that distance I have shot many groups that were well under half MOA. My Savage Mod 12 in .223 is more accurate at the cost of a whole lot of weight. Though if I were speinding and could only get one the CZ would win out if I was having to cary it very far.
 
^ This might get you there but at $1.40 a round before shipping I think I could find something better to do it with.
 
Anything I have to do outside the press to each case is going to really hamper my reloading enjoyment. I guess I could just not shoot it very much and use factory ammo, but I'm sure you guys know how that will turn out. Cheap to shoot and easy to reload is way up there on the list of priorities

Possibly the most interesting thing in this thread so far is the three straight-walled cartridges mentioned, the .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin, and .45-70. I will do research into these and what rifles chamber them, if any of them are suitable for my purposes it sounds like that might be the best of both worlds; rifle performance and pistol reloading simplicity. Any input here?
 
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Possibly the most interesting thing in this thread so far is the three straight-walled cartridges mentioned, the .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin, and .45-70. I will do research into these and what rifles chamber them, if any of them are suitable for my purposes it sounds like that might be the best of both worlds; rifle performance and pistol reloading simplicity. Any input here?
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A Marlin Guide Gun in .444 or .450 would be awesome. A lot of power in a very handy package. I've been wanting one for years for hunting, just haven't gotten to picking one up (yeah I know, overkill for whitetails). It sounds to me from your original post that you're looking for a .223 Rem. which are a lot of fun to shoot and really not too bad to reload, you just need to develop a system for prep work. By far, trimming is my absolute least favorite part of reloading, for high volume trimming I picked up a 3-way cutter for my RCBS trimmer. Between the 3-way cutter and a 1/2" drill to replace the hand crank, I cut my trimming time by about 75%. Use a spray lube like Hornady One Shot along with a consistently metering powder like H335 and .223 Rem is cake to load for. My 6.5x55 and .280 Rem take twice as much work to load for since I weigh every charge and don't have a 3-way cutter for them. I also don't load them in the volume that I do .223. .308 and 7mm-08 are also great cartridges, but the .223 ammo is cheaper and even cheaper yet to load for.

Stu
 
Plus if you get a Lee Collet die and just neck size, you don't even need to lube. I don't really have this option since my .223 loading is for an AR. I do use it for .243 however, which would be another good alternative. I have to get one of those 3 way cutters. Save a lot of cramped fingers trying to chamfer and deburr after trimming. One of the RCBS power trimmers would be nice too but, a little pricey for my budget.
 
slappy, can you elaborate on the collet die? Is that a carbide die like what I use with my other calibers? My understanding is the carbide dies do not require the use of lube. Also why is it different with ammo destined for an AR vs. a bolt action?
 
Lee makes a Collet die that sizes the neck only. It doesn't require lube. It is considered to make a more accurate load since you use brass that has been fired in the particular rifle you are loading for and re-size only the neck so that the bullet fits properly. The brass has been fire formed and to fit that chamber and the cartridge can then only be fired in that particular rifle. It isn't a carbide die, I have heard you don't have to lube for carbide dies either but have never used them so I can't advise on that.

As for loading for the AR, I have always been told that you should full length resize every time when loading for a semi auto, since they are a little more particular or maybe finicky is the word.
 
I guess I don't understand the difference between that and a normal sizing die. Any sizing die would only be able to size the neck, unless I'm missing something? Are sizing dies not normally used with necked cartridges?

Sorry this is become a reloading thread. If loading the rifle cartridges isn't as bad as I thought then that changes things. If I don't have to mess with lube and can ONLY resize the cases once in a while (I will be firing far from max loads), then that might be ok.
 
What sort of accuracy are you wanting at that range?
Are you wanting something to shoot off a bench and weight doesn't matter, or must it be light?

I think calibre wise you should go for 223, easy to load and cheap to load, and factory ammo can be brought cheap.
You also could also take it out to longer ranges if you want to in the future.

Gun wise, depends on what accuracy you want.
But I'd probably for an AR 15, plenty of fun, accurate, and loads of accessories available.
I'd go for a 20" barrel, if you want high accuracy go for a heavy 20"
 
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