Chance to educate highschool students

Poz

New member
Hmm.. it's been a mighty long time since I posted here. In fact I beleive somewhere around 6+ months. Previously I'd come begging for help on a rather large school paper that I had to right for my AP language class. Much thanks to all that helped.

Onto the topic at hand. In my Citizenship Issues class we are currently discussing the Second Amendement. This discission includes a talk from an NRA member and a member of Nebraskans for Peace (I beleive that's the correct name). Unfortuneatly, I know the NRA representitive (a security guard) to be.. hmm.. not the most authoritative figure, and as such much of what he says will be ignored.

I do not know the anti-gun speaker, but rather that his argument is based around the Second Amendment being out of context (as we now have a national military system and such).

My question is, is there anything in particular I should debate on? Any gleaming gems with which to bash upon the heads of my peers?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
-Patrick
 
Heya Poz...
Although not a pro-gun article, this is a very good treatment of the 2nd A and it accepts that its an individual not collective right. The jist of the article establishes the 2nd A; and thus gun control measures are weakened and so is in favor of repealing it.

Your Constitution is killing you A reconsideration of the right to bear arms.
By: Daniel Lazare Harper's Magazine October 1999

I recommend this for its forceful acceptance and arguments in recognizing the 2nA as an individual right.....not for its desire to repeal it. Actually I wish most anti-gunners were as bright and logical as this man. Go get it tomorrow while its still on the newstands


This is the original draft of the 2nd A as Madison wrote it in 1789...the Senate pared it down: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
[/quote]


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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited September 30, 1999).]
 
Poz,

Also look for article by Polsby in the Atlantic Magazine 2-3 years ago.

Polsby also has a very interesting article called "Of Holocausts and Gun Control" available on the web. Of couse a review of Lott and the value of having the 2nd is always in order.

Noel
 
This is cut from another board's poster, who was answering a similar question:

"U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876) where the Court held that the Constitution applied to the federal government and not the states. During the next 10 years there were a series of decisions that resulted in the current
philosophy that a resident of any particular state is not less an American citizen, leading to:

Presser v. Illinois (1886) where the Court ruled that "states cannot ... prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms".

Miller v. Texas (1894) I can't locate much on this case, but I believe it basically elaborated on the Presser decision.

Patsone v. Pennsylvania (1914) upheld the power of the state to restrict hunting weapons to those allowed by state law to take game. Patsone was a resident alien, prohibited from hunting in Pa. Oliver
Wendall Holmes wrote in the continuing decision "the prohibition does not extend to weapons such as pistols that may be needed occasionally for self-defense" supporting even the right of aliens to arm to defend
themselves.

U.S. v. Miller (1939) is the latest case and the only case that mentions militia. The Court upheld the right of the citizen to possess any firearm which is a recognized military or militia weapon. Sawed-off shotguns (the subject of the case) were excluded from this category since "no judicial notice testified that the military has, indeed use for a short shotgun."

One other case is significant here: Dred Scott v. Sandford. The decision that former slaves were not citizens was later overturned by the passage of the 14th Amendment, but the point that survives is the
opinion that, as a citizen, a former slave could "carry arms wherever he went".

There are a bunch of cases that support the idea that statutes and the Constitution are to be understood according to the plain meaning of the words and that the Constitution is to be interpreted in the broadest possible terms regarding the rights of the individual, among them:

Marbury v. Madison 5 US (1803)
Williams v. U.S. 289 US (1933)
Boyd v. U.S. 116 US (1886)

Finally, to quote Hubert Humphrey, well known for his support of conservative causes "The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government....".

If you are interested in some good references, with lavish bibliographies:

Sprecher "The Lost Amendment" ABA Journal 51 (June 1965)

Hays "The Right to Bear Arms..." Wm & Mary Law Review (#2 1960)

Levine & Sax "The Second Amendment..." Houston Law Review 7 (Sept 1969)

Rohmer "The Right to Bear Arms..." Catholic University of America Law Review 16 (Sept 1966)

Shalhope "Ideological Origins of the Second Amendment" Journal of American History 69-3 (Dec 1982)

Weiss "A Reply to Advocates of Gun Control Law" Journal of Urban Law 52-3 (Winter 1974)

Gottlieb "Gun Ownership: A Constitutional Right" Northern Kentucky Law Review 10 (#1 1982)

Dowlut & Knoop "State Constitutions and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms" Oklahoma City Law Review 7 (#2 1982)

I gave a VERY brief summary of the cases cited, and it is always good practice to check the actual case abstracts to verify that words were not being taken out of context.

One more thing about US vs MILLER, the oft-mis-quoted favorite US Supreme Court decision of the Gun Prohibitionists:

The Supreme Court decision stated that "no judicial notice has been given to the military use of a short barrel shot-gun. The case is therefore remanded to the appelate
court for fact-finding and ruling" since the SC doesn't do fact finding.

A funny thing happened: The case was NEVER RE-TRIED! The lower court finding of the individual right to keep and bear even sawed-off shotguns, that the Fed.Gov had appealed to the SC, WAS NEVER OVERTURNED!"


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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
Oatka:

Could you please give me the cite or where I can find the information on the Miller case wherein you state "The case is therefore remanded to the appelate court for fact-finding and ruling"

I've been trying for several months to find the source of this.... It has been mentioned by several scholars in their articles... but to date I have not found any such wording anywhere.

I think one of the best books to read would be "That every man be armed" by Halbrook.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
POZ.... even thou the effort will, most likely, conentrate on the 2nd and firearms..... be prepared for the "Milita" angle....... anti's are always trying to blind-side you and side-step the discussion with that issue..... for info on Nebraska statues governing this issue... refer to http://statutes.unicam.state.ne.us/ and then search into chapter 55.

I serviced a Neb. Reserve unit for several years and when the question of "Who is in the Militia..... only the Guard and The Reserves".... we found that that is not entirely true. All the states have statues define what is and who is or is not in the militia.


good luck
 
Poz,
All of the above are great references to support the position that the Second Amendment supports an individual's right to keep and bear arms. Check your state Constitution as well, it may be more clear as to the meaning of individuals keeping and bearing arms for their defense than the US Constitution.

Keep in mind that once it is established that the Second applies to individuals, it must be pointed out that these rights are not bestowed upon us by our government. They are, rather, bestowed on us by God/Nature/Buddha/Allah/Vishnu/Clapton/Whatever and recognized as guaranteed to the individual by the Constitution independent of the government. What the Second really does is recognize each individuals right to defend themselves and their family. Samuel Colt said that guns are "the great equalizer." The Second declares that with guns, no one will be "more equal than another."

A very basic argument, on a common sense level - not a legal level, is that if a man with a gun (legal or not) tries to kill or harm someone else. That person has a right to defend themself in a manner equal to that of the attacker regardless of their size, shape, color, religion, sex, or political views. The government has no right to prevent a person from the means to defend themselves.

As far as being out of date, ask the anti whether he/she thinks any of the other amendments in the Bill of Rights is out of date. How about the right to free speech, or religion, or to peacably gather. The Second protects all these other rights. It is the keystone that holds the Constitution and all of the other amendments together.

Ask your opponent: "If some nut with a gun started shooting people at random at your place of business and started coming at you, what would your thoughts be?"
A. I wish we had more gun control laws.
B. I wish this guy had better problem solving skills.
C. I wish I had a gun.

It's better to have one and not need it
than to need one and not have it.

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RKBA!

"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsay Clark

"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale
 
The plot thickens:

It turns out the man who is going to be presenting the anti-gun side is a United States Senator :)

This may require a bit more info than I first suspected.

Thanks for the help, keep it coming
-Patrick
 
Ask the senator how he can think a disarmed society would be better off than an armed one in the face of history.

Explain the consequences of having a state with too much power over its constituents. Some good examples are Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

When he starts talking about crime and accidental deaths, ask him to explain why every relaxation in gun laws seems to produce a drop in violent crime instead of an increase.

Lastly, ask him why he wants to remove one of the fundamental checks and ballances from our system of government.

Explain that the 2nd Amendment is a safety mechanism, and that tampering with it is in itself, an act of tyranny.

All said and done, He'll still probably still disagree with you. Have fun trying though, and you may just convince some of your classmates.
 
It might be easier to debate with a brick wall than a US Senator :) Good luck.
I suggest you take the "logical" approach. ie, Police do NOT have to respond to calls for help, and there are not that many Police, so how am I assured that I will be protected if you take my guns away? You had better arm yourself with many FACTS about successful defense against crime. Equally, be prepared to debunk the "facts" he may present for the anti-point of view-in particular that you are 43 times more likely to hurt yourself or a friend than a criminal...blah blah blah(www.guntruths.com destroys several myths about guns).
And what if the gov't gets out of control? Who protects my interests then? The way I see it is that there are 4 major groups in society, government is broken into 2 groups the military and the police, criminals, and citizens. If anyone of these groups has more power than the others, it can somewhat control the other 3 (so if only the military had guns it could control the other 3 groups) Given that, we KNOW that criminals will always have guns. Therefore, the Police must have guns, and in greater force, to control crime. The military obviously must have guns for protection from other nations. That leaves the citizens. Take away their guns, and they can not protect themselves from criminals, police, or the military; they are at the mercy of the other 3 groups. QED, citizens must be armed as well, in order to protect their interests and not be subjects of the other 3 groups.

A lot of anti's will counter this by saying you can't have that many guns in society because it will become the Wild West. Counter this point with the example of Switzerland. The Swiss are armed to the teeth, but do not have rampant gun violence. Therefore, guns are not what cause violence. When the anti-gun person says "Switzerland is different..." quickly interject "So you are admitting guns are not the problem, the people that misuse them are?" That'll make them think for a minute or two. Quietly sip water as they recompose themselves.

I hope this helps a tad, and good luck!!! Let us know how it goes.
 
Bookie, sorry for the delay. The quote came from a poster on another board. I will see if I can track it down and get you the guy's
email address so you can direct the question to him.

Good luck on the debate, these pols know all the tricks.

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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
Poz...
when is this debate?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC-
Thursday in my citizenship issues class. (uhm... something to the effect of 9am)

Everybody else (i guess this is sorta an all inclusive term)-
Thanks quite.. I like the Switzerland example alot.. I'm fairly sure that my response will prove to be quite the ambush for him. The class I'm in is a graduation requirement, and therefore primarily populated by people who don't care in the slightest. That a highschool student would prepare, most probobly hasn't even crossed his mind as of yet.

I look at this the same way it was wrestling a girl during 7th grade. If he crushes me (as he should, as a political representitive), he'll look like a prig. If I crush him, he'll have to do something drastic like throw himself off a building. And if it's anywhere in the middle.. I win. As I am the lowly under-educated 17 year old.

-Patrick
 
Poz...
I like that attitude. RE Police protecting you: Note the case law
http://www.jpfo.org/Dial911.htm


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>State and city governments -- rather than the Federal authorities -- are
responsible for local law enforcement. So, only occasionally have
Federal Courts ruled on the matter of police protection. However, in
1856 the U.S. Supreme Court declared that local law enforcement had
no duty to protect a particular person, but only a general duty to
enforce the laws. [South v. Maryland, 59 U.S. (How.) 396, 15 L.Ed., 433
(856)]. The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives you
no right to police protection. In 1982, the U.S. Court of Appeals,
Seventh Circuit, held that:.. there is no Constitutional right to be
protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or
madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents
against such predators but it does not violate the due process clause
of the Fourteenth Amendment or, we suppose, any other provision of
the Constitution. The
Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: it tells the state to let the
people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state
to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law
and order." [Bowers v. DeVito, U.S. Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit,
686F.2d 616 (1982). See also Reiff v. City of Philadelphia, 471 F.Supp.
1262 (E.D.Pa. 1979)].

There are a few, very narrow exceptions. In 1983, the District of
Columbia Court of Appeals remarked that: "In a civilized society,
every citizen at least tacitly relies upon the constable for protection
from crime. Hence, more than general reliance is needed to require
the police to act on behalf of a particular individual. ... Liability is
established, therefore, if police have specifically undertaken to
protect a particular individual and the individual has specifically relied
upon the undertaking.... Absent a special relationship, therefore, the
police may not be held liable for failure to protect a particular
individual from harm caused by criminal conduct. A special
relationship exists if the police employ an individual in aid of law
enforcement, but does not exist merely because an individual
requests, or a police officer promises to provide protection." [Morgan
v. District of Columbia, 468 A2d 1306 (D.C.App. 1983)]. As a result, the
government -- specifically, police forces -- has no legal duty to help
any given person, even one whose life is in imminent peril. The only
exceptions are a person who:

has helped the police force (e.g., as an informant or as a
witness)

can prove that he/she has specifically been promised protection
and has, as a result, done things that he/she otherwise would
not have done.

RELY ON THE POLICE: AND PAY HEAVILY

New York: Steady Threats from a Known Source Mean Nothing

Even someone repeatedly threatened by another has no entitlement
to police protection until they have been physically harmed.

In 1959, Linda Riss, a New Yorker, was terrorized by an ex-boyfriend,
who had a criminal record. Over several months, he repeatedly
threatened her: "If I can't have you, no one else will have you, and
when I get through with you, no one else will want you." She
repeatedly sought police protection, explaining her request in detail.
Nothing was done to help her. When he threatened her with
immediate attack, she again urgently begged the New York City
Police Department for help: "Completely distraught, she called the
police, begging for help, but was refused." The next day, she was
attacked: a "thug" hired by her persecutor threw lye (sodium
hydroxide) in her face, She was blinded in one eye and her face was
permanently scarred. The Court of Appeals of New York ruled that
Linda Riss had no right to protection. The Court refused to create
such a right because that would impose a crushing economic burden
on the government. Only the legislature could create a right to
protection:

"The amount of protection that may be provided is limited by the
resources of the community and by a considered legislative
executive decision as to how these resources may be deployed. For
the courts to proclaim a new and general duty of protection ... even to
those who may be the particular seekers of protection based on
specific hazards, could and would inevitably determine how the
limited police resources of the community should be allocated and
without predictable limits."

Judge Keating dissented, bitterly noting that Linda Riss was
victimized not only because she had relied upon the police to protect
her, but because she obeyed New York laws that forbid her to own a
weapon. Judge Keating wrote: "What makes the city's position
particularly difficult to understand is that, in conformity to the dictates
of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self defense. Thus, by
a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City
of New York, which now denies all responsibility to her." [Riss v. City
of N.Y., 293 N.Y. 2d 897 (1968)].

California: An Imminent Death Threat Means Nothing

Even a person whose life is imminently in peril is not entitled to help.
On 4 September 1972 Ruth Bunnell called the San Jose (California)
police department to report that her estranged husband, Mack
Bunnell, had telephoned her to tell her that he was coming to her
house to kill her. In the previous year, the San Jose police, "had made
at least 20 calls and responses to Mrs. Bunnell's home ...allegedly
related to complaints of violent acts committed by Mack Bunnell on
Mrs. Bunnell and her two daughters." Even so, Ruth Bunnell was told
to call back only when Mack Bunnell arrived. Some 45 minutes later,
Mack Bunnell arrived and stabbed Ruth Bunnell to death. A neighbor
called the police, who then came to the murder scene. The California
Court of Appeal held that any claim against the police department: "is
barred by the provisions of the California Tort Claims Act, particularly
section 845, which states: Neither a public entity nor a public
employee is liable for failure to establish a police department or
otherwise provide police protection service or, if police protection
service is provided, for failure to provide sufficient police protection.'"
[Hartzer v. City of San Jose, App., 120 Cal.Rptr 5 (1975)].

Washington, D.C.: Rape Is No Cause For Concern

If direct peril to life does not entitle one to police protection, clearly
imminent peril of rape merits no concern. Carolyn Warren, of
Washington, D.C., called the police on 16 March 1975: two intruders
had smashed the back door to her house and had attacked a female
house mate. After calling the police, Warren and another house mate
took refuge on a lower back roof of the building. The police went to
the front door and knocked. Warren, afraid to go downstairs, could
not answer. The police officers left without checking the back door.

Warren again called the police and was told they would respond.
Assuming they had returned, Warren called out to the house mate,
thus revealing her own location. The two intruders then rounded up
all three women. "For the next fourteen hours the women were held
captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual; acts upon
each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of (the
intruders-ed.)." The Superior Court of the District of Columbia held
that: "the fundamental principle (is-ed.) that a government and its
agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as
police protection, to any particular individual citizen.' ...The duty to
provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a
special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific
legal duty exists." In an accompanying memorandum, the Court
explained that the term "special relationship" did not mean an oral
promise to respond to a call for help. Rather, it involved the provision
of help to the police force. [Warren v. District of Columbia, D.C.App.,
444 A.2d 1 (1981)].

Illinois: School Teachers Get No Help Either

On 20 April 1961, Josephine M. Keane, a teacher in the Chicago City
Public Schools was assaulted and killed on school premises by a
student enrolled in the school. Keane's family sued the City of
Chicago, claiming that, "the City was negligent in failing to assign
police protection to the school, although it knew or should have
known that failure to provide this protection would result in harm to
persons lawfully on the premises (because) it knew or should have
known of the dangerous condition then existing at the school." The
Appeals Court affirmed the judgment of the Circuit Court of Cook
County. Presiding Judge Burke of the Appeals Court held that,
"Failure on the part of a municipality to exercise a government
function does not, without more, expose the municipality to liability."
Justice Burke went on to say that: "To hold that under the
circumstances alleged in the complaint the City owed a special duty'
to Mrs. Keane for the safety and well being of her person would
impose an all but impossible burden upon the City, considering the
numerous police, fire, housing and other laws, ordinances and
regulations in force." [Keane v. City of Chicago, 98 Ill App2d 460
(1968)].

North Carolina: Helpless Children Don't Count

Even defenseless children merit no special care. On 3 June 1985
police tried to arrest a man and his "girlfriend," both of whom were
wanted on multiple murder charges, and who were known to be
heavily armed. The alleged murderers -- along with the "girlfriend's
two sons, aged nine and ten years -- tried to flee in a car. As the police
closed in after a running shoot out, the children were poisoned with
cyanide and then shot in the head either by the mother or her "boy
friend," one of whom then blew up the vehicle, killing both. The boy's
father -- who had filed for divorce - sued the law enforcement
agencies and officers for "wrongful death" of his sons. The North
Carolina Court of Appeals held that: "the defendant law enforcement
agencies and officers did not owe them (the children -- ed.) any legal
duty of care, the breach of which caused their injury and death ...Our
law is that in the absence of a special relationship, such as exists
when a victim is in custody or the police have promised to protect a
particular person, law enforcement agencies and personnel have no
duty to protect the individuals from the criminal acts of others;
instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest law breakers for
the protection of the general public. In this instance, a special
relationship of the type stated did not exist ...Plaintiff's argument that
the children's presence required defendants to delay (the) arrest until
the children were elsewhere is incompatible with the duty that the law
has long placed on law enforcement personnel to make the safety of
the public their first concern; for permitting dangerous criminals to
go unapprehended lest particular individuals be injured or killed
would inevitably and necessarily endanger the public at large, a
policy that the law cannot tolerate, much less foster." [Lynch v.
N.C.Dept. of Justice, 376 S.E.2nd 247 (N.C.App. 1989)].

Virginia: Wrongful Release = Wrongful Death? Wrong!

Marvin Mundy murdered Jack Marshall in Virginia. Mundy -- convicted
for carrying a concealed pistol -- was sent to jail by a judge who
expressed concern that Mundy, "might kill himself of a member of the
public." Mundy was mistakenly released from jail 8 days later. Nine
days later he was re-arrested on an unrelated charge. Five hours
later, the same jailer and sheriff released him, apparently without
checking to see if that was proper. Three weeks later Mundy robbed
and murdered Marshall. Marshall's widow sued, alleging negligence
on the part of the sheriff and jailer, and asserting a violation of Jack
Marshall's right to due process. The Court rejected the claim: " ... a
distinction must be drawn between a public duty owed by the official
to the citizenry at large and a special duty owned to a specific
identifiable person or class of persons. ... Only a violation of the latter
duty will give rise to civil liability of the official. ... to hold a public
official civilly liable for violating a duty owed to the public at large
would subject the official to potential liability for every action he
undertook and would not be in society's best interest." ... no special
relationship existed that would create a common law duty on the
defendants to protect the decedent (Marshall -- ed.) from Mundy's
criminal acts. Similarly, without a special relationship between the
defendants and the decedent, no constitutional duty can arise under
the Due Process Clause as codified by 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1983.
Therefore, plaintiff's (Mrs. Marshall -- ed) due process claim also must
fall." [Marshall v. Winstonm, 389 S.E.2nd 902 (Va. 1990)].

THE BOTTOM LINE: YOUR LIFE IS IN YOUR OWN HANDS

These cases -- and there are many others -- show clearly that under
U.S. law:

no individual has a right to police protection, even when life is in
clear and immediate peril.

there is no right to police protection simply because there are
not enough police resources available to enable every person
who feels threatened to be protected;

to make police officers answerable to individual citizens for a
failure to provide protection would make police officers afraid to
do anything for fear that an action -- or inaction -- would expose
them to civil liability.

This is unavoidable:

Life is risky

the police cannot be everywhere at once

it is impossible to hire enough police officers to protect every
person who needs it or thinks he/she needs it

No one can or should rely on the local police force to defend him- or
her-self, even against a specific threat coming from a known source.
Each of us is responsible for ensuring his or her personal safety.
Anyone who says, "You don't need a gun, the police will protect
you," at best is mis-informed and at worst is simply lying. To offer
such advice suggests that police have a duty to provide protection
and usually will provide it. The police have no such duty. And, while
the police may try hard to provide protection -- and a failure to do so
can be catastrophic - there is no legal recourse for person harmed by
that failure.

WHAT WE NEED LEAST: GUN BANS AND WAITING PERIODS

"Gun control" is founded on a total misunderstanding of the role of
the police in our society. "Gun control" advocates presuppose the
police have a duty to protect every individual. But, as proved above,
the police have never had this duty, and indeed, cannot have it so
long as the Constitution remains in force. Therefore, bans on gun
ownership - or imposition of a waiting period before a gun may be
purchased -- simply give an attacker a legally protected window of
opportunity to do you harm. Moreover, "gun control" makes the law
abiding person less able and willing to take responsibility for his/her
own defense. We will never eliminate criminals. But we must do far
more to curb them. That is what the Constitution requires. Many
police forces are under strength. But it is quite clear that to enable the
police to defend each and every one of us, would require us to set up
here a police state that makes Joe Stalin's Russia look like a "love
boat" cruise ship. That is not the lesser of two evils -- i.e., better than
letting criminals run free -- it is the greater.

WHAT WE NEED MOST: NATION-WIDE CONCEALED CARRY

A law abiding person's security -- as a matter of Law and a matter of
Fact -- is in his or her own hands. Even if we had effective criminal
control -- and we are far from that happy state of affairs -- each law
abiding person would still be responsible for his/her own safety. Any
law abiding person should be able legally to carry firearms,
concealed, as this is the best way to enable such persons to protect
themselves. It is a potent deterrent: the criminal would not know who
was, and who was not, armed. It would enable a person who had
been threatened -- and was not entitled to police protection -- to have
at hand the means to protect him- her-self.

THE FUTURE: NO MORE KILLEEN MASSACRES

Concealed carry is not a panacea. A criminal would always have the
advantage of the first shot. But if the intended victim(s) were lawfully
entitled to carry a concealed firearm, the criminal's first shot could be
his/her last. If concealed carry of firearms were Federal Law,
massacres such as occurred in Killeen Texas would almost certainly
become a thing of the past. The criminal would be killed, quickly, by
one of the intended victims. Licensing is not needed, simply because
criminals now carry concealed weapons at will. Licensing would only
affect the 99+ percent of Americans who own firearms, and who do
not abuse them. What purpose is served by the costly building of
huge files on law abiding people? Moreover, is not the presumption
in U.S Law that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty? It
is better that we enact and strictly enforce harsh penalties for
concealed carry by those legally debarred from firearms ownership -
persons with criminal records of violence -- the more so if
commission of a crime were involved.

LIFE OR DEATH: IT'S UP TO YOU

Wise-up those who back "gun control" -- Federal, State, and local
law-makers, law enforcement chiefs, prosecutors, and media
personalities -- that the police have no duty to protect you. Let them
know that their support for "gun control" puts your life at risk. Send
them a copy of this Special Report. Urge them to ditch "gun control"
and to lobby urgently for nation-wide concealed carry. Your life
depends on it.

[/quote]

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Poz,
Just my .02.
The man is a US Senator, so be polite and respectful,but also be firm and don't back down. Remember, he had his backside spanked by a doctor when born, just like everyone else. Be short and to the point. You are not going to change his mind, the rest of the class is your audience, so frame your question( you are probobly going to only get one crack at him, so make it count) so that he can neither give an emotion based reply, or reply with a question. Do a little research on him to see how he stood publicly on issues. Did he give a lot of campaign speeches about crime control, only to vote against or come out against something like Project Exile? Like you say, you're only a 17 year old kid, and he is a US Senator. Keep in mind though, that a kid asked why the Emperor wore no cloths.

Fuel for your pro gun machine:
On Jan 24th 1994, James Filaiggi, in Lorain Ohio, shot his former wife Lisa as she cowered in a neighbors closet. He had chased her from her home, fired several shots at her and finally caught up with her 30 min after the whole episode began. The police station is less than 5 miles away. Who benifitted(sp) from gun control here? Certainly not Lisa, or any of us taxpayers that now support the condemed murderer as he sits on death row.
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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited October 05, 1999).]
 
Another angle to consider are the implications involved in either repealing or interpreting the 2nd Amendment in such a way that it is as good as repealed. If someone can take that kind of liberty with one of our rights, what's to keep them from doing away with the others?

If the 2nd Amendment can be so easily explained away, then what's next--Due Process? Free Speech? Private Possession of Property? Or the others that the Bill of Rights is supposed to guarantee?

Hope that helps--let us know how the debate turns out.

jth


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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
 
Recommended books:

"The Samurai, The Mountie, and the Cowboy"- comparisions of gun control laws in different countries. Explodes the myth that we'd be better off like them. Also points out that countries with restrictive gun laws have less civil liberties as well.

"That Every Man Be Armed"- about the tradition, creation, and interpretation of the Second Ammendment. Conclusive evidence that it was to be an individual right (check out Tench Coxe's explanation- approved by Madison). Explores the founder's fears of a "select" militia, and a standing army. Their fear of a standing army was one of the reasons for the Second, so it's ludicrious to now argue that a standing army makes the Second obsolete, because the founders wanted an armed citizenry to deter such forces.

Make sure you come with a proper debunking of the "43 times" fallacy. Point out that Kellerman has REFUSED to release his data to other researchers. Point out how the number has changed. I think later he changed the number twice. Point out that an overwelming majority of those deaths were suicides.

Point out that suicides and crimes of passion (the venerable "friends 'n family" argument) can just as easily be committed with "sporting" rifles and shotguns as with handguns and assult rifles. Point out that these sporting guns are more powerful, and more deadly, than handguns, and their substitution for them would raise the murder rate. There's information out there that if a certain percentage of murder attempts were done with shotguns, and none were done with handguns, the murder rate would dramatically increase. Ask them man if he favors banning "sporting guns" which are usually more deadly.

If he says that "Saturday Night Specials" should be banned, ask him how to define them. Cost? Call him racist, saying poor people shouldn't be able to afford protection. Size? Ask him why it's worse to be shot by a small, low caliber gun than a big, high caliber one. Point out the racist origin of the SNS bans- the Army Navy revolver laws. Ask him if he thinks criminals will go without weapons if they have pay $50-100 more for a gun.

Ask him to give an example of ONE COUNTRY with a high murder rate that lowered it substantially by instituting gun control. He then show him examples of countries that have had increased, or no change, of crime after gun control laws- Australia and the UK come to mind.
 
LoL, this is getting scary.

It is no longer a Senator, it is the Cheif of Police. Which means that I'm basically SOL. However, I still beleive that I can make his points look superfelous, or unwarranted.

However this definatly puts a twist to things as I one day hope to call this man "boss".

-Patrick
 
Poz...

Chief of Police, eh? Then by all means use the case law about no police obligation. Don't be intimidated...as noted be polite, respectful...but play to win...no quarter just because he may be your future boss. The goal, even if not attained, is to win...otherwise it's just masturbation.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
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