I talked to a professor of an entreprenuer class last night. He said that a company is researching ways to incorporate ceramic into the barrels of machine guns to protect it from over heating. This is supposed to be the next big innovation in weapon technology. Anyone heard of this before?
Ceramic lined barrels?
- Thread starter JerryHN
- Start date
sir_n0thing
New member
I know they use ceramic in high end brake systems for supercars because of the heat-handling properties, i have no idea if that makes it appropriate for a rifle barrel though.
Sent via Tapatalk ~Android~
Sent via Tapatalk ~Android~
I assume that the ceramic would be a coating after the barrel is rifled ?
Then the barrel would have to be bored slightly larger at production time.
This sounds like a very interesting process. I know that chrome lining adds a small amount of lubricity and good corrosion resistance to barrels. They have been doing that since WWII
If you have more info, please share.
Thanks
Then the barrel would have to be bored slightly larger at production time.
This sounds like a very interesting process. I know that chrome lining adds a small amount of lubricity and good corrosion resistance to barrels. They have been doing that since WWII
If you have more info, please share.
Thanks
Rifleman1776
New member
OTOH, it could be a ceramic barrel with steel outside sleeving. The ceramic would be brittle but have great wear qualities and heat resistance.
Dfariswheel
New member
Ceramic has been researched for many years for use in engine blocks and gun barrels.
The idea for both is ceramics ability to handle high heat and wear.
A ceramic engine would require no cooling system and a ceramic gun barrel would melt the receiver and bolt to slag before the barrel failed.
Unfortunately, no one has been able to solve the problem of the brittleness of ceramic.
In either application, shock causes the ceramic to shatter, and until that problem is solved, ceramic engines and gun barrels are not possible.
Every few years we hear about ceramic gun barrels but either this is really some sort of "treatment" that isn't real ceramic, or you hear about experiments with ceramic barrels or liners, then you hear nothing more about it because it failed.
The first company that can build a successful ceramic engine will instantly OWN the automotive world.
The first company that can make a ceramic gun barrel will instantly render every other gun barrel in the world obsolete literally over night.
The idea for both is ceramics ability to handle high heat and wear.
A ceramic engine would require no cooling system and a ceramic gun barrel would melt the receiver and bolt to slag before the barrel failed.
Unfortunately, no one has been able to solve the problem of the brittleness of ceramic.
In either application, shock causes the ceramic to shatter, and until that problem is solved, ceramic engines and gun barrels are not possible.
Every few years we hear about ceramic gun barrels but either this is really some sort of "treatment" that isn't real ceramic, or you hear about experiments with ceramic barrels or liners, then you hear nothing more about it because it failed.
The first company that can build a successful ceramic engine will instantly OWN the automotive world.
The first company that can make a ceramic gun barrel will instantly render every other gun barrel in the world obsolete literally over night.
Dfariswheel
New member
Again, not possible in the current technology.
Ceramic is HARD, almost wear proof, and highly heat resistant, but it's BRITTLE.
A gentle tap with a hammer and it shatters.
The shock of firing a bullet down a ceramic barrel shatters it, whether its a ceramic liner or a ceramic shroud.
Ceramic is HARD, almost wear proof, and highly heat resistant, but it's BRITTLE.
A gentle tap with a hammer and it shatters.
The shock of firing a bullet down a ceramic barrel shatters it, whether its a ceramic liner or a ceramic shroud.
warbirdlover
New member
You guys have it nailed. It's too brittle. And it's also temperature sensitive as if you have a cold barrel and get it got quickly (or the other way around) it can shatter. This is similar to a ceramic insert in a machine running dry and then you turn on coolant.
warbirdlover
New member
That's what I believe will have to happen. A "composite" of ceramic and something else to make it less brittle.
FrankenMauser
New member
The true, "high end" vehicles are running carbon-ceramic rotors. It is said to make a substantial difference in braking ability. (The weight loss doesn't hurt.) However, they still have to be a carbon composite, and are attached to a metal rotor. If the carbon-ceramic plates were not reinforced by the inner metal rotor, they would shatter on the first use.
To make a little money off the concept....
Nearly every vehicle in current production is running "ceramic" brake pads. How much does it affect the average vehicle's braking ability? Zero. There isn't enough of the ceramic material in the brake pad composite, and brake pads don't do anything for cooling, anyway. But... In the good systems (Lincoln, Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, etc), there is a noticeable difference in the performance of ABS and traction control systems. Friction.
The down side of those "good" systems, is increased wear on the rotors. As the ceramic content in the brake pad composite is increased, the rate at which the rotors wear increases, as well.
How is this firearms related?
One simple statement: There's no free lunch, with current technology.
Sturmgewehre
New member
"A company is researching it"? A company has been researching this for many years, probably several companies. Research doesn't equate into products all the time. As already mentioned, there are some very real problems to over come. Even if they did somehow overcome these problems, the barrels would be so expensive it wouldn't be practical for civilian use for many years.
mapsjanhere
New member
Worst of both worlds, you get the soft steel inner with the lousy heat conduction of the ceramic
The best application of ceramics is by using them as powders and incorporating them in other existing technology. "Ceramic" brake pads are marketed in just about every auto parts store in America, but the actual composition shows it's just an additive to the mix. It's not a 100% fireformed brick of ceramic.
Ceramic knife blades are the real leading edge, but they haven't gotten the recipe down to the point you won't break them. Until then, they are a novelty, albeit getting inexpensive if Harbor Freight has them.
Lining a barrel in ceramic would have the same problems chroming has. You have to button rifle oversize, and then apply the stuff on the surface. It won't be an integral part of the matrix, it's a coating. It also has to finish and airgauge to about one ten thousandth in spec, more than that creates pressure spikes and a kaboom increases in possibility. If it can't take some serious bending and still stick without cracking, at least as good as chrome, it's not good enough. Not there yet.
Chroming and Nitriding beat ceramics for barrel use, with nitriding having the accuracy edge in general. It doesn't add dimensionally, which means however well it was rifled is how it stays.
Ceramic knife blades are the real leading edge, but they haven't gotten the recipe down to the point you won't break them. Until then, they are a novelty, albeit getting inexpensive if Harbor Freight has them.
Lining a barrel in ceramic would have the same problems chroming has. You have to button rifle oversize, and then apply the stuff on the surface. It won't be an integral part of the matrix, it's a coating. It also has to finish and airgauge to about one ten thousandth in spec, more than that creates pressure spikes and a kaboom increases in possibility. If it can't take some serious bending and still stick without cracking, at least as good as chrome, it's not good enough. Not there yet.
Chroming and Nitriding beat ceramics for barrel use, with nitriding having the accuracy edge in general. It doesn't add dimensionally, which means however well it was rifled is how it stays.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
IIRC, back in the 60s or 70s, Buick had a deal with Smokey Yunick for research on ceramic engine blocks. After a few million bucks, they gave up.
IIRC in the early 80's there was a road racer on the east coast running a dry ceramic and fiberglass block motor in a sport sedan class. Which is about all they got out of it, some notoriety.
If the antifreeze cartel didn't buy it and store it in that big warehouse next to the Fish 100 mpg carburetor and a strange crate from Egypt with Nazi markings.
If the antifreeze cartel didn't buy it and store it in that big warehouse next to the Fish 100 mpg carburetor and a strange crate from Egypt with Nazi markings.
Tom Matiska
New member
I would think brittle too, but the folks on the receiving end of this business seem to have ceramic armour figured out. I wonder.
BTW, Smokey was tinkering with ceramics in his adiabatic engine (no cooling system)... I understand it was a mechanical success, but was abandonded because the high temp produced more NOx than the EPA would ever allow.
BTW, Smokey was tinkering with ceramics in his adiabatic engine (no cooling system)... I understand it was a mechanical success, but was abandonded because the high temp produced more NOx than the EPA would ever allow.
mapsjanhere
New member
Ceramic armor works because it's brittle, not despite. You need something extremely hard to defeat the penetrator core of armor piercing bullets, and that's what the ceramic does. The brittle material gives you maximum hardness until the point of failure, which is what you want. Ductile materials typically shallow in their load-deflection curves much earlier, allowing penetration without destroying the penetrator.
BTW nitride conversion is a form of ceramic coating.
BTW nitride conversion is a form of ceramic coating.
