Censorious Moderators Suck
- Thread starter JackFlash
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Marko Kloos
Inactive
The First Amendment is absolutely null and void within the confines of privately owned enterprise, such as AOL or TFL. You have every right to start your own bulletin board or ISP, and when you do so, you may censor contributions in any way you see fit. If people don't agree with it, they are free to look for a competing service that falls more in line with their beliefs and views.
Your contribution betrays a fundamental and all-too-common misunderstanding about freedom of speech. The First Amendment protects public speech, on public grounds...not publically accessible speech on private property. Do I have the right to come into your house and say anything I want, without any right on your part to tell me to shut up, change the subject, or leave the premises? This is the same deal...TFL is someone's enterprise, a virtual living room, and whoever owns it makes the rules regarding acceptable speech.
Your contribution betrays a fundamental and all-too-common misunderstanding about freedom of speech. The First Amendment protects public speech, on public grounds...not publically accessible speech on private property. Do I have the right to come into your house and say anything I want, without any right on your part to tell me to shut up, change the subject, or leave the premises? This is the same deal...TFL is someone's enterprise, a virtual living room, and whoever owns it makes the rules regarding acceptable speech.
It's their playground. If we don't want to play by their rules, they've expressed a willingness to take their ball and run home. You don't have to like it, but it's the fact.
Choice you have to make is whether the content and participation in this board is enough to balance out your displeasure with the tight controls.
Choice you have to make is whether the content and participation in this board is enough to balance out your displeasure with the tight controls.
It is a "moderated" board. You can set up a board and be the moderator, or set up a board and not moderate. Unfortunately, there is a real legal liability to boards that are not moderated and there is the liability that you experienced associated with a moderated board.
So Jack, what handguns do you like?
So Jack, what handguns do you like?
Mike Irwin
Staff
God almighty...
People who invoke the Constitution without UNDERSTANDING the Constitution...
The Constitution prohibits the GOVERNMENT from creating laws that abridge free speech. TLF is a PRIVATE enterprise. The moderators are not governmental functionaries. They're private citizens moderating a private enterprise.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 25, 2000).]
People who invoke the Constitution without UNDERSTANDING the Constitution...
The Constitution prohibits the GOVERNMENT from creating laws that abridge free speech. TLF is a PRIVATE enterprise. The moderators are not governmental functionaries. They're private citizens moderating a private enterprise.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 25, 2000).]
Anyone who has problems with moderators or moderated forums is welcome to head over to AR15.com, where the glories of an unmoderated 24/7 bitch session will be made abundantly clear.
TFL is owned by Rich Lucibella. He put his policies in place for a reason: to encourage civil, intelligent discourse. Stuff like "Glocks suck!" is neither intelligent nor civil and is therefore subject to being stomped by the Staff.
Insulting TFL Staff for enforcing Rich's policies is no different than pissing on the shoes of the cop who pulls you over for running red lights. Quite simply, if you don't like the rules, you can leave anytime. There's the door, right over there. ---->
Clear?
TFL is owned by Rich Lucibella. He put his policies in place for a reason: to encourage civil, intelligent discourse. Stuff like "Glocks suck!" is neither intelligent nor civil and is therefore subject to being stomped by the Staff.
Insulting TFL Staff for enforcing Rich's policies is no different than pissing on the shoes of the cop who pulls you over for running red lights. Quite simply, if you don't like the rules, you can leave anytime. There's the door, right over there. ---->
Clear?
panzerfuehrer
New member
This is way OT for the Handgun forum, but....
I am a mod in another BB, very similar set-up to TFL, and we have our share of folks there who believe it is OK to yell FIRE in a crowded theater because of some misguided notions like "it's a free country".
We have recently changed our policy in regard to flaming and moderation, and now run things much like the way they are run here at TFL. Lots of whining, but we believe it will work in the long run.
I've been called nazi, fascist, camp kommandant, etc., and I simply reply with "What part of Private Forum is giving you difficulty?"
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.
I am a mod in another BB, very similar set-up to TFL, and we have our share of folks there who believe it is OK to yell FIRE in a crowded theater because of some misguided notions like "it's a free country".
We have recently changed our policy in regard to flaming and moderation, and now run things much like the way they are run here at TFL. Lots of whining, but we believe it will work in the long run.
I've been called nazi, fascist, camp kommandant, etc., and I simply reply with "What part of Private Forum is giving you difficulty?"
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.
I suspect that this is the biggest gun board around because of the excellent job done by the moderators. I've had one or two of my topics closed and I wasn't too happy about it but it's their software, server, etc. and it's their rules. They may not be perfect, because they are, after all, human; but I believe that they do their best in most circumstances and should be recognized for freely giving of their time to perform this valuable function and not insulted for their efforts.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Irwin:
God almighty...
People who invoke the Constitution without UNDERSTANDING the Constitution...
[/quote]
Yeah . . .
As for the "private property" issue the US Supreme Court ruled in "Amalgamated Food Employees Union v. Logan Valley Plaza" 391 US 308 (1968) that private property that is generally available to the public constitutes a "public forum" and is, accordingly, subject to the provisions of "protected speech" as afforded by the first amendment.
The Firing Line constitutes a "public forum" per the starre decesis of Amalgamated v. Logan.
Expression of opinion, no matter how absurd or unfounded, does not constitute libel or slander thereby exposing no party to the liability of litigation. Cf. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942) and Terminiello v. Chicago (1949).
The first amendment provides the option of disagreement. Indeed disagreeable views is at the heart of protected speech. You CAN tell people to shut up. But to prohibit them from expressing their views because you disagree and "it's your forum" is not within the provisions of protected speech.
But what the hell do I know ???
God almighty...
People who invoke the Constitution without UNDERSTANDING the Constitution...
[/quote]
Yeah . . .
As for the "private property" issue the US Supreme Court ruled in "Amalgamated Food Employees Union v. Logan Valley Plaza" 391 US 308 (1968) that private property that is generally available to the public constitutes a "public forum" and is, accordingly, subject to the provisions of "protected speech" as afforded by the first amendment.
The Firing Line constitutes a "public forum" per the starre decesis of Amalgamated v. Logan.
Expression of opinion, no matter how absurd or unfounded, does not constitute libel or slander thereby exposing no party to the liability of litigation. Cf. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942) and Terminiello v. Chicago (1949).
The first amendment provides the option of disagreement. Indeed disagreeable views is at the heart of protected speech. You CAN tell people to shut up. But to prohibit them from expressing their views because you disagree and "it's your forum" is not within the provisions of protected speech.
But what the hell do I know ???
panzerfuehrer
New member
Hey Jack. I think you will find it is not at all an issue of the unpopularity of your opinion, but the manner in which you convey it. Witness HelgeS.
The difference lays in courtesy. You can sound like a fool if you wish, but you can't be a jerk while you're doing it.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.
The difference lays in courtesy. You can sound like a fool if you wish, but you can't be a jerk while you're doing it.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The law is TOTALLY unclear on this subject as it applies to the Internet, so no, it is NOT obvious that the cited court cases apply.
Access to TFL is controlled by logins and registration. That fact alone could very well take it out of "public" arena.
If you're so upset, sue.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 25, 2000).]
Access to TFL is controlled by logins and registration. That fact alone could very well take it out of "public" arena.
If you're so upset, sue.
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited July 25, 2000).]
Your wrong Jack!! Read the registration policy again. Your agreement to the rules means you will follow all 5 of them. This IS NOT a public forum. It is NOT open to anyone who doesn't register!! Nuff Said!!
Frenchy
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Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!
Frenchy
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Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!
Peace Be With Us All!!!
Personally, I do not have a problem with Rich
or any of the moderator's employed by this board.
As a matter of fact, I think they
all do a very respectful job keeping us
in line.
After all, you never know
when Big Brother may be looking in?
Best Wishes To All,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.
Personally, I do not have a problem with Rich
or any of the moderator's employed by this board.
As a matter of fact, I think theyall do a very respectful job keeping us
in line.
After all, you never knowwhen Big Brother may be looking in?
Best Wishes To All,
Ala Dan, Life Member N.R.A.
I guess that we all need to get a life. Perhaps we could have a section of the board devoted to uncivil postings. I would agree that "Glock Sucks" is simply a baiting technique and does not add to anything whatsoever. So, I ask you again Jack, what handguns do you like and why do you like them? How about adding something to this board. It is clear that moderated boards are well established on the internet and you are not going to change things on the basis of your legal citations. It is clear that you are educated. BTW: Your comments were not removed from the board, it is just that the thread has been closed. Really, how much can be said in response to "Glock Sucks"? I must admit that it is good to see such whole hearted responses. So, Jack, what handguns do you like and why? I doubt that your choices "suck", but I might gain something from your response. Ooops, the woman of the house has just busted me. Gotta go before I really get it 
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Jack-
Ummm...did you read the Policies to which you agreed before joining TFL? Did you see anything in there that spoke of your right to spew any venom of your choice? I didn't think so.
OTOH, did you not agree to the part that said, "As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership. No Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way. At best you will receive one warning."? Yeah, I thought you did.
TFL Staff ain't perfect. But we try to honor the mutually agreed Policies; how 'bout you concentrate on honoring your word? Your interpretation of the First Amendment is erroneous and, your argument (in light of your agreement to the Policies) specious.
Allbest-
Rich Lucibella
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited July 25, 2000).]
Ummm...did you read the Policies to which you agreed before joining TFL? Did you see anything in there that spoke of your right to spew any venom of your choice? I didn't think so.
OTOH, did you not agree to the part that said, "As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership. No Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way. At best you will receive one warning."? Yeah, I thought you did.
TFL Staff ain't perfect. But we try to honor the mutually agreed Policies; how 'bout you concentrate on honoring your word? Your interpretation of the First Amendment is erroneous and, your argument (in light of your agreement to the Policies) specious.
Allbest-
Rich Lucibella
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited July 25, 2000).]
Some people just like to post stuff because they like to see the shock value. Then when they get replies to their post they feel like their important. Your right to free speech ends when you offend someone by being a anal orrifice.
Go tell your boss what you think about him and see if you have a job the next day. Free speech isn't free. It has a price and that's that you respect others by choosing proper words.
Just because you like the second ammendment doesn't mean you can shoot anyone anytime.
Put your mouth and your gun in a holster.
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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
NRA lifer
GOA
GSSF
KABA
Go tell your boss what you think about him and see if you have a job the next day. Free speech isn't free. It has a price and that's that you respect others by choosing proper words.
Just because you like the second ammendment doesn't mean you can shoot anyone anytime.
Put your mouth and your gun in a holster.
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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
NRA lifer
GOA
GSSF
KABA
Mike Irwin
Staff
Hey Leedesert,
I just told my boss what I think of her....
Luckily I both like and respect my boss!
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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
I just told my boss what I think of her....
Luckily I both like and respect my boss!
------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
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