CCW in Virginia restaurants, et al.

A

andyb

New member
We are working on it but the "Post" doesn't approve. Tough luck!

Andy
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http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A26040-2000Jul12.html

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ONE MAN'S restaurant may be another man's saloon, but how can you tell in Virginia? Members of a state legislative committee aren't sure yet, but the distinction could be a matter of life or death for Virginians who like to take their concealable weapons to dinner and drinks. The state's concealed-weapons law bars permit holders from carrying their weapons into any establishment licensed to serve drinks.

The reasoning, if you need a lifeline: At your rowdier roadhouses, dance halls and bars, mixing drinks and guns might be hazardous to your health. But it creates a hardship, too, according to some lawmakers. "We have law-abiding citizens who have to leave their weapon in their car when they take their family out for a nice dinner," said state Sen. Stephen H. Martin of Chesterfield County. "There are some places where this is just a major inconvenience and leaves a permit holder unable to protect his family."

But what kind of places are these, and just how vulnerable are their unarmed diners? And how does a beer joint rise to become a tavern or, better still, presumably, an inn? "The devil's going to be in the details," House Majority Leader H. Morgan Griffith of Salem told the Associated Press. "It's going to be difficult to draft a piece of legislation that works for what we want to do, but we're going to make an effort at it."

The group will attempt to look at "areas that have high use of alcohol or a concentration of alcohol as their primary thing . . . or where alcohol is more important than the food," the majority leader said. With all due sympathy to weapon-deprived diners, the safest course would be to bite the bullet, drop the whole effort and leave the guns at home.[/quote]
 
As a Virginia CCW holder, this topic is of considerable interest. Currently, it is illegal to CCW in any establishment that serves alcohol. Some other states (including, I believe, Texas) differentiate based on the establishment's primary business, with:
> CCW permitted in restaurants where alcohol is not the principal business;
> CCW precluded in bars (etc.) where alcohol is the principal business.
This seems like a sensible approach, although some practical guidelines to define the categories would be required, and I hope Virginia adopts it -- even better, they should permit CCW in all dining establishments, as they did until about five years ago.
 
Here in Oklahoma you can take your CCW and Gun into a Red Lobster per say where they have beer and wine. But food is their primary revenue. Now a straight up bar with a hotdog and chips however is not permissible.

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Try to take away my gun...and you will see my 2nd Amendment Right in ACTION!!! -Me
 
The problem being that the Dept. of Alcoholic Beverage Control requires that a certain percentage of sales be food and non-alcoholic beverages - 45% to get and keep a mixed drink license. I hope they can figure it out, it has only been this way since 1995. I live in an urban area of Richmond (the Fan) within walking distance of many average to excellent restaurants. Heck, even if I drive I have to park a block or three away and walk. John
www.abc.state.va.us/enforce/abcguide.htm

On-premise, On-and-Off premise Wine and Beer [3 VAC 5-50-110]

These licenses are issued for businesses where wine and beer, or beer only, may be consumed on the premises of the business. On-and-off means that customers may both consume alcoholic beverages on premises and purchase closed containers to take off the premises. Typical holders of these licenses are restaurants, hotels, private clubs, or resorts. All licensees falling into this category, except for private clubs, must have minimum monthly food sales of at least $2,000, and food must be available at substantially the same hours that wine and beer are sold.

Mixed Beverage Licensees [3 VAC 5-50-110]

This license permits the holder to sell liquor and mixed spirit drinks for consumption on the premises of the business. A mixed beverage license also includes the right to sell and serve wine and beer on premises, although a separate wine and beer license will be issued in addition to the mixed beverage license. A brief description of the most common classes of mixed beverage licenses follow:

(1) Restaurant
Permits selling and serving of mixed beverages in dining and designated rooms, including rooms used for private meetings and parties. If a restaurant is located on the premises of a hotel, the license also permits the selling and serving of mixed beverages, including original bottles, to guests in their bedrooms or to groups holding functions in private rooms. This license requires obeying the "45% rule," which means that food and nonalcoholic beverage sales must account for at least 45% of the total gross sales of mixed beverages and food. Also, monthly sales of food prepared and consumed on the premises must be at least $4,000, of which no less than $2,000 should be in the form of meals with entrees.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that open carry is permitted in most parts of VA, including restraunts that serve alcoholic beveridges. It would seem that the way to get a decent meal is to simply remove your 'cover', i.e. take off your jacket or vest so that your weapon is visible. However, you may not consume alcohol while armed (and I have no problem with that), but at least you can eat in a real restraunt. Not a perfect answer, I'll agree, but at least you don't have to subsist on fast food (sic) if your carrying in the Old Dominion. I've not tried this personally, but have heard of others doing this, and I am looking for an opprtunity to confirm this with the local constabulary before hand. M2
 
Strange law.

In AL, you can only carry legally with a CHL, and it becomes null and void if you're "under the influence of intoxicating liquors or drugs."

There is no law preventing one from carrying in a bar in AL that I'm aware of.
 
Mike,

I have read many of your posts over the past months and I absolutely believe you're "right on target" in almost all of them. However, I respectfully recommend you not employ the "unconcealed" approach suggested in your post to this thread.

While you are certainly correct that Virginia law permits unconcealed carriage of a handgun, in several (maybe ten) threads during the last year I have learned that individuals have been arrested (in Virginia and elsewhere) for offenses like disorderly conduct when they carry openly. These threads have emphasized the facts that:
> The decision to arrest is frequently within the individual LEO's discretion; and
> Creating public disorder -- upsetting others -- by lawfully carrying openly can be viewed as a "disorderly" conduct.

I certainly don't agree with this. After all, Virginia law permits unconcealed weapons carriage, so it's illogical for the same law to condone the arrest of an individual who is properly exercising this right, only because others are uncomfortable with public display of a handgun. However, I've decided the risks and costs of this legal entanglement simply aren't worth it.

Regards.


[This message has been edited by RWK (edited July 13, 2000).]
 
I appreciate your interest in the topic, it hit home a couple weeks ago.

On the way up to the farm in Mathews County, my wife and I and her brother and sister-in-law stopped for lunch in a Rte 17 "all you can eat restaurant" with beer/wine available. Frankly, until I was inside I hadn't thought of my carry item. Sitting in the booth with waitress hovering for an order I got a bit nervous for I had to go to the food bar to fill up. I worked at my self-conciousness, feeling trapped - my gang didn't know I carried - all kinds of thoughts and "what will I do if challenged?".

Frankly, people with CCW permits are supposed to be responsible - that's what all the checks are about - and if that's so, then responsible people should be free to go where they will ... restaurants, bars, churches, federal and court buildings, schools, and across state lines. But then - this may be another story ... or thread.

For those who don't know of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL). They led the way to the passing of CCW in Virginia and define their group as <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to defending the civil rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the right to keep and bear arms an essential civil right."[/quote]

I have not yet become a member (for my own reasons) but I have been following their activities, past and present, through the web site at http://www.vcdl.org and their **VA-ALERT news bulletin. For those with an interest, you'll find some good information and links.

BTW: The WashPost picked that up a day after it was in The Virginian Pilot - they doctored it a bit then added their "comment".
Andy

[This message has been edited by andyb (edited July 13, 2000).]
 
Thanks for your thoughts, RWK. My plan was to speak with a Falls Church officer I know by sight and say 'hi' and get some 'unofficial insight' as to whether I'd be cruising for a 'public nuisance' or 'disorderly conduct' bust if I uncovered in a restraunt. Interestingly, (according to the database at www.packing.org) Falls Church requires a conceald carry permit if you want to exercise your right to carry openly (go figure).

I agree with you that it is the officer's discretion, it is harassment, and one's rights don't do one much good if they aren't exercised, eh? Getting arrested is one thing, making the charges stick is another, but in Fairfax Co., this kind of chicken manure could cost one's carry permit if you got the wrong judge, and therefore prolly isn't worth the agravation. I need more research/counsel before I'd try this.
M2, an opinionated boob, and good at it!
 
My opinion (not that I give them here :> ) is that you should be allowed to carry where food and alcohol are served (food = real cooked food with many varities, not finger foods). I.E. Red Lobster, Show Me's, even Hooters and places like that. If the place is a bar, then you know why you went there in the first place (to get zonked or close to it) and isn't a family place (all bars have a "no one under 21 allowed"). You don't bring your spouse and 2.3 kids to a bar. As for myself, I don't go to bars, so I don't have that problem. And, if my friends need a DD, then they can call me, I will pick them up outside the bar, not inside. Also, from all the "stats" I've read about CHL holders (or those who carry without but choose to do so responsibly), they know better then to get zonked (or close to it) while carring their sidearm. I have this one rule... one drink (drink = alcohol beverage, whether it be just a sip to more then one can/bottle/glass) and all guns are locked up in the safe. No ifs, ands or butts about it. Actually, owning guns have helped to wean me off of alcohol... why? Think about it, my rule equals no self protection for myself or my "kid" (a cat). If I do indulge, I have my house locked up tight but that is no defense. I don't think the anti's really understand the stresses we gunowners/permit holders have to endure, not including listening to them try to take away our Rights to begin with. We walk that certain line, making sure we give 110% to be as responsible as we can. We give up "drinking" with our pals because we wish to ensure that no lines are crossed. We use our manners and "turn the other cheek" values so we don't seem the aggressor. We are the first to use Sir, Ma'am and Please excuse me to even the worse of "punks". Even though we carry the ultimate force with us each and every day, we don't try to find trouble, we actually do everything in our power to avoid it. We use our greatest asset before we even think about using our backup assets, our brains before force. As you've noticed, I've defined everything. I know the meaning of IS and I know that the anti's nitpick on things to confuse others. To them, a bar is any place that may serve alcohol, which to them, your living room could be defined as a bar. Just my $2 peso worth.

USP45usp

$2 peso = At work, I was tipped by a driver with a $2 peso. I like the coin so I decided to use that instead of .02 cents worth... I think it's worth about the same :).
 
Mike,

Let me add one more point to our ongoing discussion. Lots of people in the DC area require high-level security clearances. Revocation of their clearance will likely cause them to loose their job. An arrest -- misdemeanor or felony, guilty verdict or not -- probably means their compartmented-level accesses will be rescinded. Add this to my argument re the "risks and costs of this legal entanglement" addressed in my second post to this thread.

Regards.
 
This certainly isn't recommended procedure, but I simply IGNORE the law.

When I carry into a restaurant, it's DEEP cover carry, and I'm normally eating with a friend who is a Federal officer with arrest powers in Virginia.

He doesn't give a damn.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Texas has probably the best idea on this. An establishment that serves alcohol and that receives 51% of its revenue from the sale of alcohol must post the 51 sign. It is illegal to possess a firearm where this sign is posted, but otherwise OK to carry where alcohol is served. Restaurants in my experience never get 51% from the sale of alcohol. In some states it is a felony to have a firearm in a place that serves alcohol. This rules out most of the eating establishments even including Pizza Huts. Not a good idea. Maybe the Virginia legislature can pattern the law after the Texas law. Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[This message has been edited by JerryM (edited July 14, 2000).]
 
VCDL President Paul Moog will be interviewed on talk radio, The Victoria Jones Show, Friday at 8:00 PM on WMAL 630 AM.

The show will also feature Virginians Against Handguns Violence representative, Jim Sollo.

You can also listen to the show over the internet (details at www.wmal.com ).

If you get a chance to call please do - to express your views on repealing the Restaurant Ban. The phone numbers are 202-432-9625 or toll free at 888-630-9625.
 
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