CCW enforcing the law?

S

SameShot

New member
Ok, I'm not suggesting, just curious.

If you have a CCW and you witness say...a guy down the street breaking into a car and removing the stereo with a screwdriver. Do you get into trouble if you hold that person at gunpoint until the police arrive?
How is it in your state?

I guess the question is, how do CCWs relate in relation to citizen's arrest?

Thanks

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Same Shot, Different Day
 
In WA, a CCW grants no police powers to the holder.

In the scenario described, you'd be lucky to get out of the situation without criminal charges.

Now, if you confronted the thief without gun drawn or otherwise displayed, and then he displayed a screwdriver or other weapon, and you drew on him, that might be a different story.

Have you read "In the Gravest Extreme" by M. Ayoob?

[This message has been edited by deanf (edited July 16, 1999).]
 
Good question.

Rob, you said you had more authority with your CCW than with your badge, when off duty, and mentioned citizen's arrest.

Care to expound?

-boing
 
In Tennessee you can perform a citizen's arrest if you witness a crime and if you can make the arrest without breaking the law yourself.

You CAN NOT use, or attempt to use, deadly force unless, and until, someone uses, or attempts to use, deadly force against you. You can protect your life or the life of someone else so long as you, or someone else, is in immediate reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury. Whether the fear was reasonable or not will be judged by a third party. You CAN NOT protect property with deadly force.

Mikey
 
In Texas you indeed can draw your weapon and use deadly force to prevent the commission of theft of a third person's property.

Written like this, essentially citizens with CCW are part of "law enforcement". What do you think crime rates would do if this concept were expaned to even more *law-abiding* citizens - I take full responsibility for myself and also look out for my fellow law-abiding citizens!

CMOS
(GOA, NRA, TSRA)
 
As Mikey noted above, TN as liberal citizen's arrest powers for witnesses to crimes. Furthemore, an Off duty LEO in TN has no specific "right to carry," and is technically on dangerous ground, especially out of his jurisdiction. (mind you I am talking technically). On the other hand, with my CCW permit, I am allowed to carrry statewide, 24 hours a day (with certian restrictions). That is what I meant by having more rights with the CCW than with the badge while off duty. I never meant to imply that the CCW was somehow connected to the powers of citizen's arrest.


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-Essayons
 
I was not implying that a CCW has any police powers.

In the scenerio, the car theif already has a screwdriver in hand. He has not made any threatening moves but could probably shank you before you draw your weapon.

On a side note..
One night a friend of mine was trying to fix his cas stereo (which we found later had a blown fuse behind the deck).
He asked me to come over and help since I was an installer as a kid.
So here we are with his stereo half-way out, with flashlights, and you guessed it... a neighbor called the cops.
5, yes 5 B&W's screamed up on us and the officers jumped out of the car. We spent 20 minutes on our faces with guns at our backs even though my friend had ID that matched the registration of the car, and residence at the place the car was in front of. ACK!
The police found it prudent to approach guns drawn and it makes me wonder what a CCW holder might do.

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Same Shot, Different Day
 
In NC it would be illegal to hold them at gun point. Holding them at gun point is considered using deadly force and you can only use deadly force to oppose deadly force.
 
No cop I know would approach a car prowler without gun drawn. I think that's because all car prowlers carry tools that double as deadly weapons.

This tactic may or may not be legal, depending on jurisdiction, but do you think any prosecutor would charge a cop with a crime for such conduct? No, and they shouldn't. Neither should they charge a civilian (as a side note, why is it that cops refer to any non cop as "civilian"? It implies that cops aren't civilians. They are. They're not military) with a crime in this case, but many would.

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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
 
In Texas, I believe the threat to use deadly force (e.g. Don't move or I'll shoot) is use of "force" but not the use of "deadly force".

Still, I'm a lot more "eyes and ears" than I am "lawman". There are to many "what if" situations which prevent knowing the "totality of the circumstances". ;)

I'd rather be the witness (explaining to the police what I saw) than the "actor" trying to justify my use of force or deadly force.

On the other hand, if someone is being victimized (battery, rape, etc.), it's a whole new ball game. Evaluate and respond. ("Respond" can mean anything from running away or total involvement.)
 
My bad, My bad.
Maybe I should have re-phrased the queston to start with.
My intent was in no way to suggest "oh, now I have CCW, I'll play cop"

As a citizen you have the powers of arrest anyway. I was wondering how you could be penalized for brandishing a gun during a such an event?
In addition
I wonder how many that would have tried to stop a crime, would walk away because of potential reprecussions of having CCW.
Some people who wouldn't mind rolling around on the ground with a criminal might think twice. If you lose that battle and you are armed...you could be a alot more trouble.
It seems to me that that if you are a CCW, then you have the additional responsibility that a criminal not get your firearm during a citizens arrest and that in that sense, it may be more prudent to display it.

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Same Shot, Different day
 
Yes, you have the power to arrest. But the answer to your question, at least in my state, is that brandishing a gun without shooting is itself considered use of "deadly force" for some reason. Therefore you cannot legally brandish unless deadly force is justified (which it is NOT to protect another's property OR your own). You'd get charged with a crime in my state if the DA/cops are liberals (depends on what county & what the situation is and how reasonable the cops are that respond).

I would recommend NO WAY JOSE get involved in something like this, unless you've got lots of time & money on your hands to fight in court. Unfortunately in this day and age, you've got to think of yourself first because of all the ridiculous laws.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited July 22, 1999).]
 
Excelent question! I say this not because I have to think hard about the answer, but because, as gun-toters, we would all do well to rethink what our actions would be, should the situation arise.

"Contingency Planning," in other words.

Here in TX, a citizen would do well, in the liberal districts (Dallas, Houston, Plano, Arlington... probably more...) to order the person to desist and assume the position, but *display no deadly force*. The pistol may be employed to protect life and limb, but even though the law says we can protect property, too, it gets sticky in civil court, too. Also, when it turns out that he was just replacing his own stereo and it was a false alarm, he can't charge you with agravated assault, or his neighber charging you with disorderly conduct, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum.

Because we take on the mantle of being armed, we are doubly charged with the responsibility to think!!!!

This was a good question, and no one should feel silly for asking one like it, or feel sheepish for running through the options.
 
Well, it looks to me like CCW holders may be less inclined to intervene in a crime than if they were not carrying for fear of being forced into brandishing/using their weapon, and getting into trouble.

That pretty much answers my question.

Kind of Ironic imho.

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Same Shot, Different day
 
If I see Bad Sh!t happening, I'll do what I can to intervene. If that means pulling my piece, so be it.

HOWEVER: I won't throw down on a goblin just for the sake of doing it; that's just asking for trouble. If I'm trying to take down a bad guy and hold him for the cops, and he forces me to defend myself, he's going down.

For example, one night a few years ago, I was strolling into the grocery store. Saw a kid (13 or 14) hauling ass in my direction, bag of Doritos in hand and an old fat security guy hot on his heels. Did I draw? Of course not.

I clotheslined the little bugger. Got a letter of thanks from the manager, too.

In this case, drawing would have been the worst thing I could do, so I didn't.

That's the essence of going about armed: knowing when *not* to throw down.

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A vote for the lesser of two evils
is still a vote for evil.
 
If the Burgular is at the house of a Pro-gun person get on the cell phone, call them and assist them in protecting their property.

If the bugularee, is a anti-gunner, call them and say..... See what you need a gun for. they will call the police and about 20 minutes after the stereo is gone they will arrive and take a report. If the guy is lucky, he will pay his $500 deductible and get a new stereo.

Seriously tho, If It were me, I wouldnt get involved, Unless it meant the Life of another, or a rape. I dont think Property is a good enough reason to get involved.
 
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