ccw choices & variety of questions

M

mxhess

Inactive
I've been trying to do as much research as possible on guns as I am rather new to all of this. Here's my story and meandering questions..

I've already made my first purchase, a gp-100 (GP-161 blued to be exact).
My wife and I both enjoy the gun and I was very surprised with how well she was able to shoot with it. I also do well with the ruger but it appears too large to be practical for any ccw purpose.

We have rented a variety of guns at the range, a kahr 9mm (k9 I think?), an XD in .40 S&W, a sp101 2" stainless steel, and 2 S&W M&Ps one each in 9mm and .40 S&W. Out of those guns I've done much better with the .40 than the 9mm and so has the wife.

I've taken her to a gun show as I am trying to encourage her choice of a ccw gun to really be her decision. She found a walther p22 that fit her hand and felt very good to her.

I researched the p22 and came across many open-ended questions about their reliability - enough to dissuade me from recommending that gun.

I reason that much like the ruger it should be simple to operate when the unfortunate social confrontation happens and clearing a feed issue or whatever should not be an issue that she or I should deal with in such a situation.

So we've moved on from the p22, please don't yell at me - I am just trying to find the most reliable choice for her that will stop the BG or BGs and will remain a viable choice for her to carry and practice with frequently.

Recently a nice man at the range allowed us to try out his bersa .380 and I did poorly with it and yet the wife picked it up and squeezed off 3 shots that were exceptionally close (less than a quarter of an inch apart in the center of the paper target). Needless to say this surprised the heck out of me as while we've been doing the rental-try out approach all of the weapons took some adjustment and re-learning and we NEVER picked up anything that we did that well with right away as compared to the bersa.

Well in researching the bersa I find yet more horror stories about the weapon.. I don't wish to start any love/hate thread on this at all but I can say that again, feed issues or other things that may cause an issue when the firearm needs to be depended upon is not something I want to ever think of (it should always go bang when the trigger is pulled).

I know that a lot of issues can and would be avoided if people would just read the owner's manual and apply proper maintenance which I am more than willing to do as I clean our gp100 after every trip even if it doesn't look like it needs it.

I am looking for recommendations that would match up with the bersa for the wife's experience of "pick up and shoot" accuracy and our desire (I asked her about this in a positive fashion and she is fully on board with wanting something she can count on in a pinch) for high reliability. We know nothing can ever been 100% perfect for everyone which is why we are looking for some guidance on this.

I've been eyeballing a sig p232 for her as a possibility but I do not have access to try out one before plunking down the money on one. So I am also looking for thoughts regarding that possible choice.

I also need some options for ccw for myself if anyone would be willing to help me out with my decision process. I can say the gp100 fits my hand well and I can easily deal with the heft. So far with reading up on the Sigs they seem like they match the reliability requirements quite well.

I think I should also mention that I am interested in that mythical "stopping-power" quantifier. I believe that the "stop the threat" mantra should be followed but I want a caliber that will do so with little compromise on the situation with a few rounds left over just in case. Note that I am trying to take into consideration the possibility of multiple BGs (groups of thugs roaming around etc).

I hope that I have provided enough information about our situation and desires for you kind folks to help us with.

Thanks in advance!
 
Go to this page:

http://www.gunblast.com/Archive.htm

Find every article on the Bersa there - if you're not sure how to search the page, use "Control-F" (hold down the control key, hit "F", type in the word "Bersa" in the search box...on a Mac it's something other than Control).

The Bersa is one of the few cheap autos that tends to get respect. It seems to work well for most folks and there are "tuning guides" to slick one up and polish the feed ramp a tad by hand if you need to go there. With the right loads, the 380 can be effective...as a defense round I'd consider some of the Cor-Bon loads including the DPX, or the new Hornady "Critical Defense". For the longest time Hornady didn't have a good low-speed expander projectile and now they finally do.

If she is comfortable with it, and will carry it 24/7, it's a LOT better than anything she won't carry.

One more thing...if what you want is a small 380 auto, you might want to check out Ruger's variant:

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCP2.htm

...and Kahr is now shipping a small 380 too that looks like a gem:

http://www.gunblast.com/Kahr-P380.htm

BUT, you can probably buy two Bersas for the price of that Kahr. The Ruger is likely less than the Kahr but still more than a Bersa, and if I recall right the Bersa is heavier than the Ruger...which can be a good thing when dealing with recoil.
 
I'll offer my humble opinion. I like Glocks because I have shot many of them and have NEVER had one malfunction in any way. That said many people don't like the feel of a Glock in their hand. I don't know the model # for sure but I think the compact 9mm Glock 22 would be a good choice for your wife. About the Bersa. I've only shot one once and I liked it. I expect they are about as reliable as any quality auto (other than Glocks) but people criticize them more because they are cheap. Many people believe high priced guns are always better but I try to focus on reliability. I fired a friends expensive .45 cal Kimber today and it had a fail to feed. For a carry weapon I would choose a Glock or a revolver.
 
There's no doubt that there's a hundred different ways to go down this road, so if it seems a bit overwhelming, that's normal. I suggest you continue to read, search and do your research, but do know this: No matter what handgun you look up, you'll find some passionate folks that crusade against it, who's sole purpose seems to be spreading the word that it's a piece of junk. And folks on the other side, too.

You'll find that the cheaper the gun, the more folks have bought it, and the more folks that might have expected more will go to every end of the 'net to speak out powerfully against it. There's a heckuva lot less folks dropping $900 on a defense handgun to be disappointed by it and go out on a crusade to bad mouth it. And don't forget that there's a lot of different things that contribute to the performance of a handgun... the ammo, the technique, the care & cleaning of it, and there's certainly much more likely to be many more "Bubba"'s that are far from expert opinions that have had problems with a $300 pistol than there are novices and neophytes that can't get a $900 gun to run properly. It's important to note this when reading someone's passionate diatribe against a less expensive pistol.

As for caliber and load proper for defense, it's a whole other ball of wax where folks crusade for their choices. Best thing you can do is read a lot, and form your own opinion. I can tell you mine, and how/why I've formed those opinions... but there must be 3,000 threads here where hundreds of posters have already given such opinions. There's not much that makes mine more valid than anyone else's.

When picking a carry gun, there's so many different angles that must be looked at. You need to be able to operate the handgun... for some women, it can be a genuine problem to rack the slide on some pistols, depending on their arm strength and their grip strength. The Bersa is a very heavy pistol when it comes to manipulating the slide, so make sure she can do that successfully every time. (this is due to the blowback operation design) With that out of the way, make sure she completely understands the controls and how they work. A double action semi-auto with a hammer drop safety and a magazine disconnector safety is a completely confusing setup to someone that isn't really overly familiar with handgun systems. This describes the Bersa exactly. It also describes the P22 (except for the heavy to rack slide, of course)

Those are key obstacles that have nothing to do with caliber or your proficiency when shooting it, but they are just as much (likely MORE) important. Only after you've gotten past those potential roadblocks do you need to start thinking about caliber and recoil and stopping power, etc etc.

Not trying to paint a gloomy picture, just making sure to highlight a few things that might not have occurred to you. It sounds like you are definitely willing to do your homework, and there's a heap of folks here who will be happy to help.

When it comes to the "accuracy" you or the wife have found after your first three shots from a handgun you've NEVER handled, I'd likely take that information with a grain of salt. To practice defense shooting, you'll be shooting at 7 to 15 yards and likely no more. If you can keep slow, aimed fired shot groups in 5 inches or less (not difficult), then I would call that quite acceptable and give no more credence to a pistol that you can shoot a little more accurately if it doesn't also do EVERYTHING ELSE well. By everything, I mean it must be reliable, it must be comfortable to shoot, concealable so that you WILL carry it, controls that you CAN operate and understand, and in a caliber that YOU will be willing to depend upon.

We'll help, but there are very few questions with a definite answer one way or the other.
 
Here is my opinion, take it for what its worth.

I like to eat, a happy wife means I get to eat. Regardless of what I like or want, I'd go for letting the wife pick her pistol, one she likes and she can shot. The more she likes it, the more she is gonna shoot it, the more she shoots it the better she will be able to protect her self.

Let her choose.
 
I do agree with the sentiment that I should let her pick but how do I balance that with what we see as choosing a reliable handgun? I've been trying to come up with more reliable examples for her to try out hence the thought on the sig p232 being close to the bersa.. any specific thoughts on that?

Oh and she has been more than able to operate all of the guns we have rented so far after a small amount of instruction from me. She can rack the slide on everything we have used. Loading mags, handling our heavy gp100 with magnums in it - she can do all of it without issue so I have little concern about a slightly heavier trigger pull or anything else along those lines.

I feel I should also mention our general proficiency in regards to accuracy.
Using our gp as a baseline we can both put 12 rounds within at most 2" at about 25-30 feet. Our best is a 2" group with the paper at the end of the range (70 feet?). I knew I'd be fine but I am impressed with how she can pick up and adjust to a gun so quickly - even the rentals.

That being said.. When we run 50 or 100 rounds through a rental I believe we should typically do better than we are towards the end with them. Since we are generally not improving much across the spectrum of rentals are we simply barking up the wrong tree by going this route at this point? Perhaps since we do well with the gp we should investigate other like models in a compact form? I did like the look of a S&W 686+ 3" for myself.. thoughts on that one for ccw?

Sevens - you totally nailed it when calling the vast amount of information out there "overwhelming". I couldn't agree more. I've spent months reading forum after forum of information.. gun reviews.. talking to gun owners etc. and the conclusion that I am coming to is that I might as well accumulate (I hear that tends to happen anyway) guns that are of interest to me and match the criteria we both share are on the short list for gathering. Out of those we will undoubtedly find some that are ideal for both of us and I should not put a priority over finding the "perfect" gun right up front like I have been. Plus if my wife lets me do that from all the reading I've done I will be a very lucky guy indeed!


So far all the input has been helpful. Thanks again!
 
mxhess ~

It sounds as if you guys are on the right track, but I do wonder why you are doing the research instead of her. What keeps her from coming online to ask these types of questions? We don't bite! (... usually.)

I'd encourage her to stop by my website, www.corneredcat.com, to learn a little bit about choosing a firearm that fits her hand (www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/tryongun.aspx), a little about the trade offs between a revolver vs a semi-auto (www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/semivsrevo.aspx), and a little about concealed carry options for female body shapes (www.corneredcat.com/Holster/howhide.aspx). There are a lot of other articles on the site, too, and I hope some or all of them may be helpful to you and your wife as you search for a gun for her.

As far as reliability goes, do pay attention to the online horror stories, but don't give undue weight to them. Listen more carefully to what experienced firearms trainers say about reliable & unreliable guns, as these folks tend to see a lot of different firearms under reasonably stressful (for the gun) conditions. As a result, most of 'em tend to develop a fairly rounded perspective about which guns are more likely to provide good performance over time.

Hope this helps. Good luck in your quest.

pax
 
options oopspinion

My wife and I found a 4" GP100 fits a fanny pack.

Glock choices are well worth testing.

Since no cartridge can be reliably depended on to immediatelly STOP unwanted behavior, consider instead which platform allows the user to rapidly accurately deliver more than one bullet.
Even a 380....

If you choose something and find it unreliable pay a professional pistolsmith to make it so.

There is no correct answer.
 
why not get her a S&W or ruger compact revolver you can share ammo with the GP100. just my preference but i would rather have a j frame with 38s or 357 than a 9mm. try a model 60 or a 642. if you already shoot a revolver well why change?
 
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