CCW and Manual Safeties

D

Dogger

New member
Have read some interesting anecdotes over the last several years about LEOs being saved by the manual safeties on their pistols -- bad guys could not disengage the safety, allowing the LEO or his back-up to save the day...

I can envision scenarios where even a civilian CCW holder could find himself in a struggle where disarmament is a real threat.

Which always causes me to ponder that perhaps the Beretta M92 Type M, Beretta Cheetah, Beretta Cougar, lightweight Colt Commander, or (shudder) a S&W semiauto might be a better choice than our favorite Sigs, Kahrs, Glocks, and revolvers.

After all, they are all extremely reliable (OK -- we can argue the box stock Colt), and the manual safety is added insurance on a disarm. Also, the safety is added insurance should we develop a sudden case of stupidity and leave the firearm where a child or innocent picks it up.

If you really have your wits about you, and see the trouble coming, then the safety should not hinder your getting the gun into action.

Seems like win-win on all counts.

Appreciate your thoughts on this.
 
I agree with you 100%. With enough practice, engaging & disengaging the manual safety becomes second nature -- something your body does out of habit without even thniking about it (like activating the turn signal in a car without consciously even thinking about it). It's for this reason that I wish Kahr would add a manual safety to their line of pistols as an option for those at want it since the MK9 is my primary CCW a majority of the time.
Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif
 
I really like what S&W did to their guns ... releasing the magazine disables the gun. If they felt that their gun was in danger of being snatched, they could release the mag and prevent further danger... for a short time (as long as the perp is unarmed). If propper training and extreme familiarity of firearms waith safies was taught, I'd prefer LEO's to have safeties due to their higher risks.

Y'all know everything I say is IMHO,
Ben

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Almost Online IM: BenK911
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"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
I prefer safeties. When I use pistols without them I catch myself going through the motions regardless. It is ingrained habit.

I will never rely on a pistol with a magazine release safety. (What's the terminology?) What if your magazine isn't seated properly? What if you accidentally drop your magazine? What if during the course of a reload, you need the immediate use of your weapon?
 
I'd like to know how an individual who has a CCW permit and is carrying concealed is going to be prone to an attempted "gun grab"?

You can't snatch a gun that you can't see.

Unless you one of those types that likes to advertise by wearing a fanny pack or a photographers vest. Then I could understand...

But otherwise, I'd suggest seeking some weapon retention training if this really concerns you.
 
Dogger; I prefer a "draw and shoot" gun myself. If I carry a pistol with a safety I simply keep it off. I think a civilian is alot less likely to be confronted with attempted "gun grab". Having the safety on is just another movement that has to be done before the gun goes BANG. Best Regards, J. Parker
 
That is why I like the 1911 pattern. Though some claim that manual safeties are just another motion you have to go through before you fire and that they want point-n-shoot guns, this is more perception than reality.

It is true that a lot of weapons with manual safeties are poorly designed and don't lend themselves to quick engagements, the 1911 style of safety is perfectly placed.

I would challenge anyone to show me how they could be delayed in shooting with a 1911. Flipping off the thumb safety happens before you clear leather or before you get on target so there's no way it could slow you down in combat. The placement of the safety is such that you cannot miss it or fail to disengage it quickly.

I would also note that a study done by the Indiana State Police (I think), showed that there was 17 second delay from the time an untrained person picked up the 1911 to the time they figured out how to fire it. There was no delay with the DA revolvers. Criminals know to pull the trigger for the boom, but they don't know about the thumb safety on a 1911. For a trained shooter, there is no delay.

And as for magazine safeties, they're nice, but not that great. Though the weapon is disabled, you're betting that you can hit that little button in the heat of the moment.

BTW, a gun grab could happen after you've presented. Automatically dismissing this possibility is dangerous. A lot of things can happen and we should all prepare accordingly. Weapons retention training, empty hand combat, situational awareness....they're all important. But lets not discount the manual safety as moot.

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When Reason Fails.....
 
I can envision plenty of scenarios that involve a gun grab on a civilian. I don't carry in a fanny pack; I prefer IWB strong side. But... consider a situation where you are approached in a parking lot or on a street by three or four individuals. They aren't doing anything threatening. They engage you in conversation, perhaps asking for directions. Suddenly there is a fist on your chin and you are going down. They are kicking and punching you, reaching for your wallet. They grab your shirt and BINGO! They see the concealed Sig. They grab it. You are now in deep doo-doo. This very scenario played out in my home town recently, only the young teenage victim was not carrying. But what if it was me?

We can't exactly go around paranoid, "Hey! Don't get close to me man! Ask your question from a distance! Oh, you want to know if I want to buy some girl scout cookies..."

:)
 
Dogger: Speaking for myself, a "group" of 4 people approching me in a parking lot would set off my alarm bells. The possible exception would be if they appeared to be two obvious "couples", or perhaps carrying satchels in the manner of Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons. Granted, those two raise other alarms; but, you get my point. :)
Otherwise, it was an excellent scenario to back your post. What if lethal force is not justified, but you must use physical force to defend yourself? Then, your assailant sees your exposed gun and decides to make a play for it? Having a safety can give you extra time. You should use that time to draw the back-up that you should be carrying and shoot your NOW armed assailant. :)
 
Unfortunately we have no real frequency data on:

1. Safety fumbles cause trouble
2. Safety stops criminal from shooting you
3. Mag safety stops you from being shot
4. You shoot the criminal with that one
chambered round during a tac reload

All we have are anecdotes. Others have done the nonexpert looking at a gun on safe study also. But how many criminals don't know this?

What are the comparative risks or benefits versus guys who fumble the safety on draw or forget to put the gun on safe when reholstering causing later problems?

Every that can go wrong with a gun has - so what are the probabilities? That would be useful in deciding what to do.
 
After acting like a kid in a candy store, and owning 17 different handguns in 5 years, I have come to my senses and realize that it is time to become extremely proficient with one hand gun -- "one gun all the time". Training and repetition should minimize the fumbling of a safety. These are variables I have some control on and can work to minimize. The dilemma is how to minimize the variables I don't control -- the actions of the assailant(s) -- and the potential loss of control of the handgun.
 
While I agree that a manual safety provides some extra protection in the event of a disarm attempt, it's not something I particularly worry about. Personally, I think the chances of a disarm attempt against a CCW carrier are rather remote. And I've taken handgun retention training.

I feel just as safe carrying a Kahr as I do carrying an M1911. YMMV.

Jared
 
That's a good point, I don't think that retention problems have surfaced as real difficulties in the CCW world as they have for police.

In fact, retention is one of those myths that are used to argue against CCW as antis say
the gun will just be taken away.

That said, training in retention is a very good thing.

So many DGUs are deterrent in nature, we don't see all the horror stories happening.
 
Dogger, I agree that owning 17 handguns in 5 years is pretty ridiculous. Surely you could have gotten some more in that long a time period.

Buy 'em all.
 
I own several pistols with safeties (all of which work dirrerently) and several without. I *personally* prefer to leave manual safeties off. However, I can see the rationale for having them: when roughly handled, pistols without safeties can be more dangerous. Guess an earlier poster's YMMV sums it all up.
 
If 4 guys approach me in the parking lot, I am already out of condition yellow. The hand is already on the pistol and the verbal warning is already going out not to approach any closer. I'll take my chance with the cop if they turn me in, I think 4 to 1 odds work in my favor in this situation.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ak9:
If 4 guys approach me in the parking lot, I am already out of condition yellow. The hand is already on the pistol and the verbal warning is already going out not to approach any closer. I'll take my chance with the cop if they turn me in, I think 4 to 1 odds work in my favor in this situation.[/quote]


Exactly. Alot has to do with the persons mindset and how they perceive threats.

If four males are approaching me in a parking lot, that's a threat.

My response would be to get out of the hole, and attempt to evade while placing my hand on my gun.

If they go the opposite direction, great. If not, then I have a bit of a problem.



[This message has been edited by dvc (edited July 27, 2000).]
 
Personally I like manual safties. I don't find that they slow me down at all, so its not like I'm losing anything for what I gain. I've been able to flick the little button safety off on my 870 fast enough to hit flying birds, and running rabbits since I was a kid. So why do we assume that if you are as familiar with your weapon as you should be that you are going to fumble with it when TSHTF.

And we can always debate about how situationally aware you should be. Yes if four guys are coming your way then you should probably start paying some serious attention, but what if a lone nutcase comes out of nowhere and starts kicking the hell out of you because he couldn't get the coffee machine to work. (happened to a friend of mine at his job, no warning at all, and he got pretty messed up). When he sees your gun while you are still trying to remain conscious, then those few seconds a safety might give you can't hurt.



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That's assuming you're using the safety. Gun is unsafe mode while carrying, but I engage the safety while it's stored.
 
Addressing only the "saftey on a pistol saving an officer's life," I can relate this one specific incident, with which I'm familiar (although I've heard of several others).

About 3 1/2 or 4 years ago, in Los Angeles, two L.A. Deputy Sheriffs were on patrol, at night. The Deputies were carrying Department issued Beretta 92FS pistols, in Safariland retention holsters on their Sam Brown belts.

They observed a car weaving across the white lines and blow a red light. They followed the car, turned on their overhead lights, but the car refused to stop, although moving slowly. Very shortly, the car stopped at the curb, near one of the projects. As the two Deputies got out, the car emptied of four young men. Also, as the car was stopped in front of an old house, beside one of the project buildings, suddenly, more young men piled out of the house and immediately surrounded the Deputies.

Without warning, several of the men jumped the Deputies and tried to disarm them. The "bookman" or passenger-side Deputy was fighting with three men, and one of the men managed to jerk his Beretta from his holster.

The Beretta's "safety" (or, hammer dropping lever) was ON (or, lever down), per Department regs. The man who'd snatched the pistol tried to shoot the Deputy, but didn't know to flip the lever "UP." He even punched the magazine release and dropped the magazine on the ground (although, as we all know, there was still a round up the spout.)

At the same time, the other Deputy is fighting for his life with four other men, on the other side of the patrol car.

Meanwhile, the first Deputy manages to knock one of his assailants to the ground, gets a hand free and pulls his "backup", an S&Klinton Mdl. 60. He fires a .38 110 gr Fed. H.P. into the man who is trying to kill him with his own Beretta. The round strikes the man in the left upper arm and goes through, into the man's lung. The man drops the Beretta to the ground and staggers off.

The Deputy turns to his partner, who screams, "He's got my gun, he's got my gun!" And indeed, one of the men almost had the Beretta out of the Deputy's holster.

The first Deputy runs to his partner, and immediately fires one round from his .38 backup into the brain of the man jerking out the Beretta, killing him instantly.

The other young men, now scared, back off and the fight is over.

Point being, if the Deputy had been carrying his Beretta with the "safety" lever UP, he and his partner would have been murdered.

(Also makes the point that just because you carry a hi-cap pistol, it doesn't mean that Murphy's law can not apply to you.)

By the way, I am acquainted with the Deputy who had to shoot the two men.

Obviously, this wouldn't apply to civilians and their CCW handguns... but the LEOs out there know just how something like the above can happen.

Personally, if I'm carrying a pistol with a "safety" (and that's what I carry) the safety is engaged. But I practice a lot, drawing and disengaging the safety.

FWIW. J.B.
 
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