CC when to draw when to shoot

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Word.
 
Learning how to spot trouble before it arrives is a more important skill than knowing when to draw and shoot. See http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html , http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/crime_is_a_process.htm, and review the entire site at http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ for starters.

First and foremost, when it comes to actual use of force at any level, there is no substitute for a working knowledge of the laws on self defense that apply in your jurisdiction. "Law" includes not only statute book law but case law as well. Consultation with a good criminal defense attorney practicing in your jurisdiction might well be the best way to get an introduction to this subject.

Also...

http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Principles_of_Personal_Defense/Jeff_Cooper

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html
and the rest of Farnam's quips and quotes at http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/Study/2006/02_StudyDay.html

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2007/02_StudyDay.htm

- and all the rest of the lectures at http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/Study.html as well

That only scratches the surface barely, but it's a start...

lpl
 
The links that have been provided and the book that has been suggested are good ones.

You used the subject line, "When to draw and when to shoot". Read and study the book and all of the links, and try to stay out of trouble in the first place. My rule is that if there is somewhere where I would not feel safe without a gun, I will not go there at all unless it is absolutely necessary.

But if trouble finds you, your first action should be to try to get away. But on the question of when to draw... do not draw unless there is every indication that shooing itself will be immediately necessary. Do not draw to warn or to intimidate or to persuade.

But if you do have to draw, and if the presentation of your firearm changes the situation--that is, if a would be assailant suddenly decides to disangage--do not shoot.

Here's one more website to check out:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html

I hope you find this helpful.
 
Thanks for the info.

Up until this point, I have definitely been using the "avoid" danger approach and agree that is the best way regardless.

I carry myself in a pretty assertive manner and try to maintain good situational awareness.

I plan on taking a CC class soon. I'm sure I will learn much there along with your information.

Thanks!
 
LOL @ Sarge

That is some really sound advice.

Now, to Checkmyswag: I don't know what state you are from but in MO, the CCW course will cover the basic rules and has a presentation from an attorney that has defended many cases.
 
I'm in TX.

Plan on taking class soon. I'm sure they cover the basics. I'm sure part of it is off of gut instinct...but training needs to be the basis of any quick reaction.

For instance, someone pulls a gun first...do you take your odds in a shootout when they already have a bead on you or just hand over what they ask for and hope they don't shoot?

These are the kinds of Q's I have.
 
That is one of the toughest scenarios one will encounter in a CCW situation.

Personally, it depends. If I get the vibes that this guy is shooting anyway, . . . I'll look for some distraction, . . . and take my chances.

But those questions are not the meat and potatoes of the CHL classes, . . . that mostly concerns the "legal" aspects. There are times it is legal and times it is not, . . . that is the part to get imbedded into your mind.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
If I feel that I am about to become the victim of an offense or am the victim of an offense, I will consider drawing.

If I am in imminent fear of death or great bodily harm, I am a reluctant participant in the situation, I have no reasonable means of leaving the situation, and no lesser force will serve to defend myself, I will shoot.

... which may or may not help you, as it comes directly from my state's criminal code regarding the use of force.
 
checkmyswag, in the situation you describe, one variable that wasn't addressed by Dwight and Madcap (although I agree with what they did address) is distance.

If the BG is at point blank, and you feel you need to draw, you might also be well-advised to physically attack the weapon arm with your other hand as you draw. Similarly, getting your entire body off the X while doing both would be a good idea.

I have a LEO friend and former dojo-partner who has disarmed several drug dealers when they've attempted a point-blank draw on him. A couple ended up with broken wrists or arms for their trouble. Granted, he's a jujutsu black belt and undercover vice detective, so his training is higher than normal... but the point is that sometimes, very close range can be to your advantage.
 
You will also need to review your EXACT local statute law AND case (common) law.

It varies by jurisdiction in many important ways.

Some states have limited statute law that defines when lethal force may be used (like Texas) wile others have NO statute law but rely completely on case (common) law (like Virginia).

This is one of those places the devil is really in the details.

Government law enforcement has attorneys available to develop policies 7 procedures.

As private citizens we do not (unless you are willing to pay an attorney to do research and then try to answer your questions and provide background.

In many places the laws in effect that allow you to draw are the same as those that allow you to fire.
Fear of death or grave bodily harm meets the law in a vast majority of places.

Little details like 'reasonable fear' can alter the situation slightly.

The first thought should ALWAYS be 'How can I escape safely without resorting to lethal force.'

It is a last ditch thing. It needs to stay the last line (unless you are looking for government housing and meals for the long term).

The simple clear cases do not seem to make it to criminal court very much.
It is those less than perfect cases that raise doubts about legitimate self defense.

A very important one is that YOU MUST STOP USING LETHAL FORCE WHEN THE DANGER HAS PASSED.

If the attacker runs away or is incapacitated the threat is OVER.

YOU WON. STOP.

There may still be other dangers, but THAT threat has ended.
 
You will also need to review your EXACT local statute law AND case (common) law.

It varies by jurisdiction in many important ways.
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This is true. The link provided by fiddletown covers the use of deadly force for the defense of one's person almost everywhere in the country.

Where the laws in various jurisdictions differ often include the following:
  • Whether there is a duty to retreat if it is safely possible to do so (it's usually a good idea anyway).
  • Whether there is a castle doctrine, and if so, how it applies.
  • Factors associated with the lawfullness of defending a third person (risky).
  • The legality of using deadly force to prevent certain kinds of felonies.
  • The rare circumstances in which it may be lawful to use deadly force to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon.
  • The defense of property (deadly force may be lawfully employed to protect property in Texas under certain circumstances).
  • Whether it may sometimes be lawful to produce a weapon or to otherwise display it in circumstances in which deadly force is not justified; Arizona, Minnesota, and Texas differ from other jurisdictions.

Do not rely on the code. For example, just because the law does not specify that there is a duty to retreat does not mean that the duty does not exist in case law.

The first thought should ALWAYS be 'How can I escape safely without resorting to lethal force.'

It is a last ditch thing. It needs to stay the last line (unless you are looking for government housing and meals for the long term).

A very important one is that YOU MUST STOP USING LETHAL FORCE WHEN THE DANGER HAS PASSED.

If the attacker runs away or is incapacitated the threat is OVER.

YOU WON. STOP.
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Excellent advice!

That's the legal side. Don't forget about tactics. Pulling your gun can result in your being shot by a robber's accomplice, another armed citizen, or an arriving first responder summoned by someone else even if it is completely justified under the law.
 
The link provided by fiddletown covers the use of deadly force for the defense of one's person almost everywhere in the country.
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It omits many very important things Virgina common law incorporates.

Things like words before the event.

Exchange words beforehand and you have a harder self defense argument to make in Virginia.

You must not have invited the events IN ANY WAY to make one of Virginia's allowed self defense defenses.

If you exchange words and then CLEARLY INDICATE your intent to end the hostilities by WORD AND ACTION, you may be able to make the other type of self defense claim.

Fail to indicate your clear intent to end the incident and then resort to lethal force and you will not have ANY claim to self defense.
It would be mutual combat and murder.

Broad brush approaches need to be viewed very narrowly.

You MUST know and understand the statute AND common (case) law for every jurisdiction you consider using lethal force in.
 
Posted by Brickeyee: It [UseofForce.us) omits many very important things Virgina common law incorporates.

Things like words before the event.

Exchange words beforehand and you have a harder self defense argument to make in Virginia.

You must not have invited the events IN ANY WAY to make one of Virginia's allowed self defense defenses.

If you exchange words and then CLEARLY INDICATE your intent to end the hostilities by WORD AND ACTION, you may be able to make the other type of self defense claim.

Fail to indicate your clear intent to end the incident and then resort to lethal force and you will not have ANY claim to self defense.
It would be mutual combat and murder.
Click to expand...

That is really not one of the things that vary very much from one jurisdiction to another. The basic principle applies in all states.

The penal code in the OP's home state addresses it this way:

The use of force against another is not justified: ....
(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly
communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing
he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts
to use unlawful force against the actor;
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The wording does vary among jurisdictions, but the substance is virtually universal. It goes way back in the English Common Law, from which the Virginia common law and the laws of forty-eight other states and all US territories have evolved.

Useofforce.us says this about it, and yes, it could be more clear for those who may not understand it:

Engaging in a fight, or consensual combat—in other words, a brawl where all parties willingly (even if implicitly) agree to be involved—strips all participants of any justification for the use of force.​
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That is really not one of the things that vary very much from one jurisdiction to another. The basic principle applies in all states.
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The nuances do indeed vary between states and even cities within states.

You need to know what law is applicable, and case (common) law often has a significant affect.
if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful force
Click to expand...

You need to review the common law to determine what has been decided constitutes provocation.

A dirty look?
Flipping someone off?
fighting words? (And how are 'fighting words' defined in the state?)

Review of statute law only provides part of the picture.
 
Posted by brickeyee: The nuances do indeed vary between states and even cities within states.
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Do you know of any municipalities in the country that have ordinances that cover the use of force by civilians? Any that have appellate courts that can establish case law?
 
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