Cause of fliers

H

hoffbill

New member
I have not pillared and bedded my Savage 111 in 270 Win. It is shooting nice groups with my hand loads, would be 5/8 to 3/4" except an occasional flier that lands 1/2 to 3/4" from what would otherwise be a nice consistent group. It is random, so not a cold bore issue, happens with test loads where I am using weighed brass etc. Usually lands high and slightly left or slightly right. I suspect it is being caused by stock movement issues. BTW I have done the standard scope checks and found no issues.

Any suggestions from you old hands?
 
I have an older Ruger 77 Mk II all-weather .300 WM I took out of the old paddle stock and put in a new Boyds laminated stock. It would always shoot cloverleaf groups and now is acting like yours. I am having Gander Mountain's gunsmiths pillar bed, glass bed and free float the barrel and in a few weeks will know if any of that helps. My thread in here is "I give up" but I'll probably start a new one when I get it back and shoot it. Good luck.
 
Any time there's a question about group shooting the very first question that should be answered is, are you shooting with any windflags? If not get a couple and learn to read them because without any flags you just do not know what is going on out there. You'd be surprised just how many fliers are condition related.
 
How many shots in the group? Without going into a bunch of math and creating more of a discussion than you might want, I'll suggest that the reason the military only uses ten shot groups is that anything less simply isn't statistically reliable.

The infamous internet three shot groups under 1/2" are exactly that - just three (or five) bullet groups that only represent about 50% of the actual group size.

Handloads? It would be nice to say they are very accurate, with a consistent flyer, the evidence says no. A box of factory target loads would demostrate that, if you don't get a wild one in a ten shot group, the handloads stand indicted for not being that consistent.

Another handloading problem other than case concentricity is getting the actual bullet tip coaxial to within .002". When the bullet is loaded and engraves more than that off the axis, it stays off axis traveling down the bore, and then follows it's nose once pushing the air. You can demostrate that to yourself, just cock some bullets badly in the neck and orient them consistently to one clock direction - they will group off to that side.

At this point too many things are in question to determine exactly what the cause is. A complete description of exactly how the ammo is being loaded, what range is being fired at, climate conditions including wind, and how many shots in the group is needed. All that conducted in a very detailed description and followed every time within strict standards is exactly how guns and ammo are tested to ensure they meet standards, whether for commercial sale or for the military.
 
Thanks for all the replies so far. I have had this happen on different days, have been shooting when the wind was very minimal,

Range is 100 yds 5 shot groups.

shooting thru a chrony, velocities are pretty consistent although approximately the same number as fliers have varied approx 30 to 50fps. I'm sure that could be a contributing factor.

tim s, tirod, and mrawesome you guys sound like competition shooters or at least more advanced reloaders than I am. I have not gotten to the level of neck turning, or checking runout etc. Just try to use good condition brass and be consistent in my technique.

Does the fact that almost all the flier are high indicate anything in particular?

Warbird, I'm looking forward to seeing how your project turns out.

All the above being said, I do not shoot competition, I just reload and shoot as a hobby, I compete against myself and my equipment to try to get the best result I can without getting too expensive.

I mainly started this thread to get some ideas of where to start looking for the cause of my inconsistencies, and I have. Hopefully a few more will be added.
 
I would get a runout gauge. They are relatively inexpensive from most reloading equipment vendors.

Check the concentricity of the case neck and the seated bullet on each reload to make sure that they are concentric.

Also be consistent on neck tension. Do you crimp your seated bullets?

Does it throw a flyer with factory ammo?
 
A piece of brass that is thicker on one side of the body will have a banana effect when fired because it will stretch more on the thin side which will result in a flyer.

So, you have to eliminate these brass with a concentricity gauge, or by throwing them out once they produce a flyer.

The problem with that and not having a concentricity gauge, is you don't know if it was you or the brass.

If you do find a piece of brass that gives a consistent flyer, you can mark the head and try loading it in the chamber in different positions to see if the flyer follows the rotation of the cartridge.

A lot of this hassle can be avoided by buying Norma or Lapua brass as it is MUCH more consistent than others and consistency is the key to accuracy.

As the Lyman manual puts it, there is no place for rebels at the loading bench. Consistency and uniformity are a must for great hand loads.
 
Hoffbill, do you weigh your bullets? What # of the five shot group is the flyer? Any distractions? New components? Sandbags? Leadsled?

And by the way 5/8's to 3/4 MOA is really pretty good for a stock rifle, so it doesn't necessarily need pillar-bedding...
 
You can determine almost nothing, repeat nothing, without flags and the " I don't think theres much" opinions are pretty much BS.
In a mild wind a reversal of 180deg from lft to rt or visa versa can be a good 1/2-3/4 inch so I'd suspect before you start fixing stuff, get a couple flags.
I cannot tell you how many guys I've dragged out to the range with gun problems only to give them 5 minutes over flags and give me that "WOW" bewildered look because they just realized they did'nt have a rifle, ammo issue.

You have fliers, first check the most obvious reason. This ain't rocket science.
 
Continued thanks to all for the help and suggestions. Tim S, I will set up flags, and hooligan, the fliers seem to be random. I will also look into adding some equipment so I can check concentricity and runout. I don't claim to be the world's greatest shooter, but I have put a few rounds down range, and usually know when I mess one up. But I accept the suggestion that my technique may be a contributer. I do not weigh each bullet, but with the Hornady SSTs when I have weighed samples from a new box, I have rarely found variation of even .1 grain, but point taken.

What I am getting from all this is that I may be as accurate as I can be without taking my equipment and skills up a notch.

Thanks again to everyone for all the input.:)
 
High and left is the traditional wind from the right, Low and to the left is traditionally wind from the left. And it don't take much.
With that aside, it is really interesting to understand how little changes can affect POI. Position of the stock in your shoulder, hand position, eye position behind the scope, follow through and on and on. These things are all made worse with slow moving bullets. That is, the slower the bullet, the more the above affect POI. Just ask any NRA smallbore rifle shooter.

Roger
 
Fliers happen at indoor ranges as well as at outdoor ranges.

Shooters have been puzzling about fliers for over a hundred years that I've read about. Not even the bench-rest record holders know why.

My own opinion is that there is always one bullet in five that just flat-out doesn't like the other four, and doesn't want to associate with them. What it is, is, there's a nay-sayer in every crowd. IOW, twenty bullets in a box of 100 are anti-social. The deal is, you pick them out and keep them separate. Once you do that, you'll have no more fliers.

Okay, if you can come up with a more definitive answer than several thousand other puzzled people, more power to you. :D
 
Good one Art! Anti-social, ha ha ha

There are so many reasons for a flyer. Even if you eliminate them one by one and you end up shooting with a rail gun, I bet there would still be an occasional flyer.
 
Have someone(s) else shoot the rifle and ammo in question. If the condition is constant, then there are things to look at. If its not, then the condition is you. Which means you have other things to look at.

Or, if available, use a machine rest (like we all have one of those in our back pocket, right?:rolleyes:). Anyway, its important to remove the human variable, BEFORE wasting time, effort and money on something that isn't the problem.

I do have a problem with the anti-social bullet thing, though. I don't think they're anti social, they get along fine in the box. I think of them more like their owners, rugged indivdualists, who once they get to chooose their own path, just don't go down the exact same road as the crowd......:D
 
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