I only go shooting on my own land, and in the watershed of my personal pond, so I'm trying to use as little lead as possible in my ammunition. At the same time, I'd like to get into reloading. But buying pre-prepared FMJ bullets for loading is a lot more expensive even than buying cast lead. Is there a material suitable for casting rounds that would be both non-toxic and safe for loading in my .308 rifle?
Casting cheap, lead-free bullets?
- Thread starter ADB
- Start date
okiefarmer
New member
I guess I don't follow. What exactly is the issue with shooting lead projos on your own land? If you are concerned with the wildlife picking up and consuming the lead boolits, wouldn't the same wildlife also pick up the jacketed boolits too. And yes, FMJ boolits have no lead exposed, but as soon as the boolit hits something just a bit harder than your winky, it's gonna deform and likely expose the "lead core". Unless you have about a 5 mile long piece of property, where the projectile can lose all velocity and just slowly fall to earth, then I don't see that you are accomplishing what you really want to do. Me thinks you worry about a non issue.
If you are equating the issue of shotgun lead pellets with rifle bullets, it's not apples and apples. The concentration is far less, and most of what you shoot with a rifle is going to bet burried way deeper in impact than lead shot that falls back to earth (pond bottoms) after losing vertical inertia.
If you are equating the issue of shotgun lead pellets with rifle bullets, it's not apples and apples. The concentration is far less, and most of what you shoot with a rifle is going to bet burried way deeper in impact than lead shot that falls back to earth (pond bottoms) after losing vertical inertia.
Yep. You sometimes see white oxide build up, but without very acidic soil, it's pretty much harmless. Take a look at Civil War bullets dug up from battlefields. Those white crusted mini-balls are full weight, for all practical intent and purpose.
Either cast or jacketed bullets will splatter lead around if they hit a steel plate squarely, but the pieces don't resemble fish eggs or seeds, like shot does, so the birds have little interest, AFAIK? If you have the option and the money, set up traps so you can catch and melt and clean and flux and re-use the lead. Bullets that hit steel angled beyond a critical degree don't dig into the steel, and more ricochet than splatter. Savage makes commercial semi-snail style bullet traps on this principle (though the design takes less steel than the original M1 .30 Carbine snail traps did), and they allow very easy recovery of the spent bullets.
If you can't afford a ready-made trap, but you have some scrap plate, tip it until the steel is struck by the bullet at about a 10 degree angle. If the plate is about 6 times longer than wide, it will look pretty much like a square from the shooter's vantage point at that angle. Catch the bullets in sandbags under the plate. Periodically dump the sand through a hardware cloth sieve to recover the bullets, then re-bag it. Replace the bags as needed.
Either cast or jacketed bullets will splatter lead around if they hit a steel plate squarely, but the pieces don't resemble fish eggs or seeds, like shot does, so the birds have little interest, AFAIK? If you have the option and the money, set up traps so you can catch and melt and clean and flux and re-use the lead. Bullets that hit steel angled beyond a critical degree don't dig into the steel, and more ricochet than splatter. Savage makes commercial semi-snail style bullet traps on this principle (though the design takes less steel than the original M1 .30 Carbine snail traps did), and they allow very easy recovery of the spent bullets.
If you can't afford a ready-made trap, but you have some scrap plate, tip it until the steel is struck by the bullet at about a 10 degree angle. If the plate is about 6 times longer than wide, it will look pretty much like a square from the shooter's vantage point at that angle. Catch the bullets in sandbags under the plate. Periodically dump the sand through a hardware cloth sieve to recover the bullets, then re-bag it. Replace the bags as needed.
That's the sort of silly comment that makes me question the grade of advice I get here on this subject.
Anyway, to answer okiefarmer, my concern is that shooting up hard targets (cinderblocks, etc) or when rounds go through the target and hit a rock out in the field, then it's going to cause the lead to do what lead does when it hits something at rifle velocity, namely cast off a huge number of tiny little lead fragments and dust. The way the water flow on my property is, that's going to take that stuff right into my pond, which sits almost on top of my water well. Not a good idea.
Also if I ever want to hunt anything, I'm damn sure going to be using lead-free ammo. Somebody did a study awhile back and found that using a lead bullet on a deer left hundreds of those little bits of lead I mentioned buried inside the meat.
And no, that white corroded coating does not protect lead from leaching into the environment. Tests have shown that the oxidized lead leaches several inches into the ground. If that soil gets washed into the water table, it takes it's lead content with it. It can also be taken up by nearby plants.
Like I said, it wouldn't be a problem if this were a properly maintained range where the soil was treated and the ground sifted. But this is a cornfield behind my house, and I'd like not to mess the place up.
So you have your own conclusions made before coming here to ask for opinions? You got mine, If you choose to ignore my advice, then so be it. I still say you are worried about nothing. Metallic lead simply doe not dissolve in water! It's lies from the EPA that you're repeating like it was fact, instead of a government agency that depends on fear tactics to stay in power.
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
New member
ADB, you have stated several times in your previous post that "someone did a study somewhere" "tests show..." . I am not being confrontational (some people are really touchy on here), but would like some sources. I think it would be a very interesting and informative read since I shoot 100% cast lead bullets. Thanks in advance!
ohen cepel
New member
The "research" on the game contaminated with lead was mostly rebuked as being driven by one man with an agenda and not scientifically valid. I do not worry about game taken with lead projectiles.
ABD- I would not worry about the lead issue myself. However, that is me. You must do what keeps you happy and at peace.
ABD- I would not worry about the lead issue myself. However, that is me. You must do what keeps you happy and at peace.
One study: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html
This study addressed fragmentation of hunting bullets in sheep to approximate the impact on whitetail deer. It found that lead particles from fragmentation travel further in the body of the animal than previously thought. It also found significant differences in fragmentation depending on bullet type.
It did not draw any medical conclusions as that was outside the scope of the study.
This study addressed fragmentation of hunting bullets in sheep to approximate the impact on whitetail deer. It found that lead particles from fragmentation travel further in the body of the animal than previously thought. It also found significant differences in fragmentation depending on bullet type.
It did not draw any medical conclusions as that was outside the scope of the study.
PistolBill
Inactive
Didn't lead come from the ground in the first place.
hickstick_10
New member
yup and most of you all drank from it when your house had lead pipes.
Lead oxides are were most of the danger is at, think of the old japanese geisha girls with the white faces......yup........white lead oxide. White lead, red lead and all there ilk is what really does the damage, it transfers through tissue much MUCH more efficiently then a peice of solid lead. That and really OLD lead paint starts to "dust", another bad thing. A straight old plain peice of lead in metal form at room temperature is pretty damn safe. It IS plain old fear mongering about lead.
And I'l agree your worrying about nothing, you have more of a risk of someones changing there oil in the field next to yours leeching into your pond then you do of lead poisoning.
But hey its your land, you do as you please. Seems your minds made up so why ask the question in the first place?
Lead oxides are were most of the danger is at, think of the old japanese geisha girls with the white faces......yup........white lead oxide. White lead, red lead and all there ilk is what really does the damage, it transfers through tissue much MUCH more efficiently then a peice of solid lead. That and really OLD lead paint starts to "dust", another bad thing. A straight old plain peice of lead in metal form at room temperature is pretty damn safe. It IS plain old fear mongering about lead.
And I'l agree your worrying about nothing, you have more of a risk of someones changing there oil in the field next to yours leeching into your pond then you do of lead poisoning.
But hey its your land, you do as you please. Seems your minds made up so why ask the question in the first place?
AlaskaMike
New member
It sounds like you're concerned enough to not shoot on your own land, and I'm guessing that nobody from this site will convince you one way or the other. Whatever your reasons and logic, they're your own and I can respect that regardless of whether I agree with it.
My suggestion, if you are overly concerned about lead, is to cast hot glue bullets and shoot them instead. Simply fill a mould cavity using a hot glue gun instead of molten lead alloy, and load using nothing more than a primer. You don't even have to worry about powder. You won't get the recoil experience of touching off a full-house .44 mag load with a 300 grain bullet, but the upside is that your shooting expenses will be 1/10th what they might otherwise be.
Just one option to consider...
Mike
My suggestion, if you are overly concerned about lead, is to cast hot glue bullets and shoot them instead. Simply fill a mould cavity using a hot glue gun instead of molten lead alloy, and load using nothing more than a primer. You don't even have to worry about powder. You won't get the recoil experience of touching off a full-house .44 mag load with a 300 grain bullet, but the upside is that your shooting expenses will be 1/10th what they might otherwise be.
Just one option to consider...
Mike
Sorry this took so long. There's been a few studies about lead fragmentation and it's entry into the environment, but here's one good example speaking to specifically the issue of hunting. It's a research paper entitled "Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure." From the abstract:
The paper's conclusion recommends that if you intend to hunt for food, or donate your kills to food pantries, etc, you should use lead-free bullets.
http://tinyurl.com/dy3wfr
Here's a page talking about some older studies, complete with the X-rays showing the lead microfragments:
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/lead.htm
Here's a news item on another study conducted on a firing range in Virginia showing that oxidized lead was absorbed by plantlife such as trees around where bullets impacted, and could be carried along with eroding soil:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/15772.php
You're correct. I'm not looking for anyone to convince me that cast lead is best, just bouncing ideas around for alternatives.
That's an interesting thought. I had considered using something like caulk or casein plastic, but I figured that might be too experimental and potentially dangerous. I didn't want to screw around with the basic structure of a round too much.
IllinoisCoyoteHunter
New member
ADB, interesting articles. I always take studies like that with a grain of salt. The article states that sustenance hunter populations show elevated levels of blood lead concentrations. I am going to go out on a limb and say that most hunters are NOT sustenance hunters, but merely casual hunters that still get 95% of their food from the grocery store. I may be wrong. I personally am more worried about going to an indoor range that has bad ventilation. Thanks for posting the sources!
I`ve cast, shot,& eaten as much if not more than average game (if we as youngens shot it we had to clean & eat it ) & to this day eat my share of deer sausage & loins
My heavy metal Blood test came back negative .
Think of all the wheel weights that fly off tires & is just layin beside the roads contaminating the ground waters .
I don`t believe it never will , but someone in DC. does !!! because my zinc pile is growin
ICH PM inbound , different subject
My heavy metal Blood test came back negative .
Think of all the wheel weights that fly off tires & is just layin beside the roads contaminating the ground waters .
I don`t believe it never will , but someone in DC. does !!! because my zinc pile is growin
ICH PM inbound , different subject
Also, they say ELEVATED levels of lead, they don't say DANGEROUS levels of lead. Likely meaning the level is below the point where it is toxic.
Another problem is that correlation does not imply causation. We don't know if the lead came from the bullets or if it came from other sources.
Another problem is that correlation does not imply causation. We don't know if the lead came from the bullets or if it came from other sources.
spencerhut
New member
You guys won't convince him lead is not evil. He has bought into the twisted "scientific" lies we have all been feed. Some of us have done the research and know the lead in game and from splattered bullets is insignificant. Some of us have eaten lead shot game all our lives and still show lower than average lead levels in our bodies. But none of that means a thing when you have a liberal funded "science" out there with the specific intent of putting one nail at a time in the coffin of the shooting sports. He bought it, so be it. Stupid is as stupid does.