Case Trimming

akinswi

New member
Case Trimming, Yes I know its everyone’s favorite thing to do in brass prep.

I wanted to bring this up too see if anyone else has had this issue,

I noticed if I trim based off the shoulder of the cartridge its no where near as consistent than if I use my $3.00 lee trim cutter head with a caliber specific shank and shell holder.

I have trimmed thousands of cases with the lee and honestly its so consistent its hard to believe. it trims every case with in less of half of 1 thousandths. But it takes forever. Even using a drill having to chuck every case in the shell holder is painstaking.

Even my hornady case trimmer doesnt get it as consistent as the lee. Was wondering if anyone has noticed trimming off the shoulder is not as consistent.

I do anneal my cases every time and when I resize i count to 10 before i remove the sized case to help reduce spring back
 
I had a worlds finest trimmer, adjusted off the shoulders, it was super hard to adjust cause it was so inconsistent. I sold it. Use a rcbs trim pro 2 now. Got a drill adapter on it and the 3 way cutter that trimms and deburrs at the same time. Easy to use, super consistent. Worth every penny.
 
When you trim off the shoulder and you have inconsistent case length that only means that you have inconsistent head to datum length. This is not uncommon to see with trimmers that trim off the shoulder . The only way to get consistent case length when trimming off the shoulder is to size your cases incredibly consistent . Search press deflection
 
Like Shadow9mm, I use the RCBS Trim Pro with the 3 way cutter, and drive it with a battery powered drill. Works great. And it’s fast. I do suggest that you buy a cutter head for each individual caliber that’s factory adjusted. I hate adjusting those cutters. I used to really hate case trimming, but not so much any more.
 
Metal God has it right. Though the shoulder registration type timmers only make your case lengths as consistent as your resizing sizing work, they make the neck lengths more uniform than whole length sizing does.

A complication is the location of the headspace determinate on the case (the shoulder, the front edge of the rim, the front edge of the belt, or the case mouth, depending on the cartridge). Because the firing pin pushes the cartridge forward against the headspacing feature as it ignites the primer, unless you have the bullet contacting the lands, it is the distance from your bullet's ogive to the headspace determinate that actually determines what your bullet jump will be. When we seat bullets, we use the bottom of the case head as the stop we seat against, but that's not what we headspace against. The head is not the headspace determinate. So any variation in the difference between the bottom of the head and the headspace determinate will be a shot-to-shot variation in bullet jump. This is obviously a bigger percentage of the jump for a short jump. If you have 0.005" of variation in that difference, and you set your bullet to jump to just 0.005" based on one case and don't know how representative it is, you will actually have a jump that is anywhere from 0.0" to 0.010" with individual rounds. If you carefully selected an average case to set up your 0.005" jump, your actual jump will vary from 0.0025" to 0.0075".

To have a consistent jump, you want to measure your ogive to whatever your cartridge's headspace determinate is. I designed and made a tool to do this for rimless bottleneck cases, but the Redding Instant Indicator, which came out two or three years later, will do the same thing. The difference is that I used chambering reamers to make my registration surfaces for the case shoulder and bullet, whereas Redding uses neck bushings to pick up one diameter on each. There are pluses and minuses to both approaches, but they should generally produce consistent results, which is what matters more than absolute measurements.

Short of making that measurement, you can just sort your cases by the head-to-headspace determinate distance. For a case that headspaces on the mouth, it's easy: that's just the case length. For a case with a rim, measure the rim thickness. For a case with a belt, measure the thickness from the head to the top of the belt. For a rimless bottleneck, use a case insert on a comparator adaptor on your calipers.

Once sorted, for each thousandth shorter that difference is, set your seating die to push the bullet 0.001" deeper into the case. As long as you don't have more than a few thousandths of total variation, you aren't going to see as much pressure effect as you do from bullet jump variation when the jump is small. A micrometer adjustment on your seating die will help a lot with this.

When your bullet jump is large, making this correction may be of no consequence and then all you can do is try it to see if your groups shrink or if your velocity SDs get lower to discern whether or not it is improving anything.
 
Admittedly, I haven't been keeping very current with "modern innovations", and this is the first time I've heard about case trimmers that "trim off the shoulder".

How does that work with cases that don't have shoulders???

I've been using a Lyman trimmer for decades, and don't think I"ll change. Yes, its slow. Its awkward. Its entirely manual (no drill power, YOU turn the crank). Its slow to adjust, and takes some trial and error. And some actual "work".

Sure, if you're wanting to do hundreds/thousands of cases in one sitting its not a tool you'll probably be happy with. Working with small batches, its not so bad.

AND, all the tools/parts you need are an allen wrench and the pilot(s) for the calibers you're going to do. When I do it right, its always been very consistent. When I don't, its not. That's on ME.

Does every rimmed, rimless, rebated, belted, straight, bottle neck, or tapered case I've ever run across without changing anything but the pilots and length adjustments.

Trimming off the shoulder? That seems like it would have to be very case specific. Almost half of the 30 some cartridges I reload for don't have shoulders. So a tool that measures off the shoulder doesn't seem as good a tool for my use as one that does everything I use.
 
I've been using the Giraud power trimmer for service rifle match ammo for some time. It's very fast for volume reloading. Like the Gracey, the case shoulder stops against a piece profiled like a chamber shoulder that is positioned by threads that set the cutting depth stop for a spinning cutter. My holders have the case make contact, and I push in against a compression spring and twist the case to get it trimmed, chamfered, and deburred all at once (the cutter profile has those features built-in. That type of holder is shown in the second drawing, here.

The trimmer has adapters available for rimmed and straight wall cases like the rimmed magnum revolver cases as well as for rimless case mouth headspacing rounds, like the 30 Carbine. So it isn't always using a case shoulder as the stop. But, like the Wilson trimmer, you need separate holders for different case shapes. I don't have any of the straight wall adapters to look at, so I don't know how he's adapted the unit to them. I own a Wilson that I use for most of my low-volume rifle calibers. I rarely see any reason to trim the straight wall pistol brass. It usually gets tossed before it needs that.
 
I use Wilson's. I have six of them now each one dedicated to a single cartridge. I set them one time and lock it down. Handcranking sucks but that is why they have a power adapter. I use a small Dewalt drill and can go though 50 cases in a few minutes one I get my rhythm going and the case I trimmed today will be the same as the one I trimmed last year.
 
Admittedly, I haven't been keeping very current with "modern innovations", and this is the first time I've heard about case trimmers that "trim off the shoulder".

The 3 leaders are Giraud (two types), Tri Trim and WFT. Of those Giraud is the most expensive, simplest and is a class act.

It works and works like a dream


How does that work with cases that don't have shoulders??? /QUOTE]

It does not work. But then a no shoulder case seldom needs to be trimmed.

Giraud makes one that chucks up in a hand drill. I have 3 that are retired (gret units but I exceeded caliber count and could not get 7.5 Swiss in the free standing unit)

More or less, if you run 4 or less calibers, the Giruad free is good (I use a corde3d drill and clamp it in a vice and you can process like crasy)

Girauds other unit that has all the shoulder calibers is a machine he build and you put the heads on (I also get a trim blad for each caliber but you can use the same trim blades for 7.5 Swiss and 308/30-06 etc as long as you have the adapter.

I will sell off the free standing Girauds (two) and the Trim Trimmer (7.5 as Giraud did not make a free standing one in 7.5 Swiss but they do have the adapter)

The free standing Giraud works well, their motorized unit is handier and its number of calibers and how much brass you trim (I average 50 a week or more)

Trim it II works but it has too many adjustments though once set its good (and you never want to adjust again.

WFT does not chamfer and deburr though its a well made tool.

The question to ask on Shoulder Trim is, does it make any difference?

Me thinks you have to get into bench rest shooting professionally before you could see it.

note: I am on at least 10 cycles of 6.5 Lapua and just starting the first anneal runs.

Unless you use one of the Inductive Annealers my personal opinion is that there is too much variation with torches to make any difference.

Metal God seems to have mastered it, but man oh man does he put in a lot of work to do so.
 
My RCBS Trim Pro is the hand crank version also, and I cranked away for years. Then, my slow little brain thought that I could remove the screw holding the hand crank handle and use my 18 volt Ryobi drill driver to turn the shaft. Works great.
 
Nick,

Would annealing affect what Im trying to do here? I usually will decap the brass and then wet clean it, dry it then I lube and resize. I try to consistently size each case for about 10 seconds which I learned from you to reduce the amount of spring back of the shoulder.

Would you recommend turning the case and running it thru the resizing die again to even the sizing process to make my shoulder bumps more consistent.

Now I do admit I have yet to test triming off the shoulder since I stopped using an expander ball in my sizing process. This could be the culprit and I could have just answered my own question.

But I find amazing with such a great die as my forster and lubing the inside the case necks that it wouldn’t center the expander ball

I always wanted the giraud but they arent cheap $450 to $500.00 If i remember correctly. I rather use that towards an annealing machine annealing is my 2nd biggest time consumer to brass prep behind case trimming
 
RC20,

You are correct When I first started annealing I got the flame ������ way to hot , It took time and practice but I am far from a master at it. But there is something therapeutic about annealing cases.

I would love to have an Amp but they are expensive
 
Last edited:
My RCBS Trim Pro is the hand crank version also, and I cranked away for years. Then, my slow little brain thought that I could remove the screw holding the hand crank handle and use my 18 volt Ryobi drill driver to turn the shaft. Works great.
RCBS makes a drill adapter for this, fairly inexpensive too.
 
Akinswi,

Annealing might affect the consistency of shoulder setback, particularly if the brass has a mixed loading history, but it will have to be consistent to do that. Removing the expander may help, as pulling on a case shoulder is more prone to distorting it than pushing down on it is. Using a Lyman M-die or a mandrel die is much less likely to cause that problem.

You can also use the case comparator and just measure head-to-shoulder datum length and sort. You can often get a couple thousandths more off the length of a case by running it back into the resizing die and letting it sit for a few seconds before withdrawing it, then measure again.
 
RC20,
I use the Lyman M die, love it, no more ball thingies on my sizing dies.

The right sequence is to size, M die, clean, then anneal. Anneal is better if you wet tumble and have clean cases (my opinion)



You are correct When I first started annealing I got the flame ������ way to hot , It took time and practice but I am far from a master at it. But there is something therapeutic about annealing cases.

I would love to have an Amp but they are expensive

I got the Annie inductive, expensive yes but I can control the anneal very tightly. I don't go for a full anneal. I did use the flame method and ruined a number of cases to start with.

One clue to right or under anneal is if it polishes off the discoloration.

I got for 80-90% with the Annie and accept I have to do it more often but I don't go over the edge.
 
RC20, I usually use my lee collet to decap and size the neck first then clean, then I anneal. Then resize with no expander ball.

I did notice that my cases do require more trimming this way , then in my first station on my Dillion RL is the Lyman m die to expand the neck

I tried something similar to your method but my concentricity was better for me this way. If I wanted almost complete zero concentricity I turned my cases about 7 turns in the collet die taking tiny turns and it was eye opening how concentric it made the case neck. But it was just an experiment way to much work.

Too bad we couldn’t just neck size for semiautos then trimming would be not be necessary. But we have to .
 
I have decided I am good with what I get though I may explore concentricity at some point.

I do have a CoAxe press and that helps but not sure how fine it gets.

The Geraud trimer makes it easy to run trim batches through, probably 300 in 10 minutes
 
In the beginning, when I first started reloading for bottlenecked rifle rounds, I bought an RCBS case trimmer. Used a hand crank for turning the cutter and a series of collets for holding the case rims. While the trimmer seemed to do a good job, it was slow, very slow, and tedious.

After a while I started doing more high power shooting, and then acquired an autoloader or two, so the volume of rounds of brass that had to be trimmed increased. My first upward step was to convert the RCBS trimmer from hand crank to power drill. This did away with having to turn the crank, and maybe speeded the process up a tad, but locking cases up in the collet and then taking them out again was still tedious – and still time consuming.

So I began looking at alternatives. I briefly consider the Giraud, but the notion of spending as much for a brass trimmer as for a rifle that generated the need to trim brass slowed me down, way down. And, frankly, reports indicated that the Giraud was tedious to set up (by this time I was shooting multiple calibers) and to clean. I also looked at some of the devices that were designed to be chucked in a drill, but again reports were that these were tedious to set up and adjust (or change to a different round). And in both cases (no pun intended), I was dubious about trimmers that indexed off the case shoulder, versus indexing off the case head. (More on that in a moment.)

Well, my journey ended a couple of years ago when I stumbled on the Lyman Trim Xpress. This device was inexpensive (mine cost about $100, though I suspect they have gone up since), small enough as not to co-opt an expanse of bench space, and, most importantly, both quick and easy to set up and change rounds, as well as to clean. It also came with a set of bushings that covered all of the rounds I needed to trim, save one. (An additional bushing cost me a whole $10.) Trimming with the Trim Express is super fast: pick up a case, stick the neck into the bushing and push against a spring, and bang, the case is trimmed. At a generous 5 seconds per case, you easily can do 720 cases in an hour.

And, I learned the hard way, there is nothing wrong with trim indexing off the case neck datum.

Literally, the term “case length” means the distance from the head of the case (where it bears on the breech face) and the tip of the neck. And if case length is too great, the neck of the case will intrude into space in the freebore of the rifle’s chamber where it isn’t supposed to go. So I had always assumed – incorrectly, as things turned out – that indexing a trimmer on the datum was likely to yield cases whose overall lengths varied.

Datum indexing means that the trimmer fixes on the length, not of the case from head to tip, but of the tip to that plane intersecting the case’s neck whose diameter equals a standard value; in the case of .30-06 or .308 brass, the datum is .400”. A good trimmer will hold that distance constant. The only way that overall length will vary is if the distance from head to datum varies, and that should not happen if the cases are similarly resized before trimming. Each of the bushings that are used with the Trim Xpress is machined for a datum that is fixed by SAAMI standard for the particular round in question; you don’t even have to know what the datum is.

In fact, back when I was using the RCBS trimmer, I found that my trimmed cases varied in overall length by several thou. In hindsight, I think the reason for that is that the way the collets that clamp the rims work is by drawing the case back into the trimmer base the harder you turn the collet screw, and if either I used different clamping pressures or (more likely) my brass varied a bit in rim diameter from round to round, my as-trimmed overall length would vary. Since switching to the Trim Xpress, I find that all of my trimmed brass comes out within one thou in overall length. So: better result, faster, and easier. And an added bonus is that setup (and caliber change) is both quick and precise. Another bonus: cleaning the trimmer is a snap and requires no disassembly.

For the record, I don’t work for Lyman; they have no idea who I am; and I’m not selling anything. But the thought of a pile of several hundred rounds of brass needing trimming no longer drives me to watching TV instead, and my trimmed brass is all more consistent in overall length (which, in turn, means jump to the lands can be set and held precisely) than ever before. What more could one ask for?
 
Back
Top