Case shoulder problem in 223

M

Machineguntony

New member
Tonight, I took apart my Dillon 1050 for cleaning, and now I am having problems with my .223 loads. The shoulder is collapsing. I think it is the powder die that is causing the shoulder to crunch. But if I don't turn turn down the powder die, then the case neck doesn't expand enough for the bullet to drop into the neck and stay (I am using a bullet feeder in the station in between the powder and the seating station, and if there isn't enough expansion, the unseated bullet pops out of the neck when it cycles to the seating station).

So the problem is: if powder die is down too much, there is the case crunch; but if not down enough, the neck isn't expanded enough. Is there a solution? I've tried for the last two hours to find a happy medium, but it isn't working.

Also, am I correct in that it is the powder die that expands the case neck?

Here is a pic,where you can see the deformed shoulder:

 
I think it is the powder die that is causing the shoulder to crunch.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that be easy enough to check? Look at the case before it goes in the powder die and again when it comes out? Or am I missing something?
 
I know little about your press, but on my Square Deal B you can accidentally put the expander/powder bushing in upside down. And maybe the crimp station, too.
I'd check that first.
 
am I correct in that it is the powder die that expands the case neck
Click to expand...

only in straightwall brass! bottleneck brass does not get belled, they get a chamfer (inside bevel)to help bullet seating. in bottleneck the die should be adjusted to actuate the powder measure only, too much and you will buckle the shoulder (you can also buckle the shoulder applying too much crimp)

if you are sure it is happening in the powder charging station and not the crimping station, are you applying a chamfer to your brass?
 
The shoulder crunch seems to happen after it passes the powder die. But in the past, I would also use the powder die to expand the case neck just a little, to seat the bullet. Perhaps I can use the swaging die to expand the case neck?

I use another Dillon 1050 for my 9mm loads, and the swaging station is what bells the brass. On my 223 press, it doesn't seem to be the case.

I will experiment some more tomorrow.
 
In all the years I have been re-loading, I have never seen a die for belling the case neck on a bottle neck case rifle round. You only bell on straight wall cases. .223/5.56, .308, .30-.06, .30-.30 are all rounds I regularly reload. The sizing die has an expander ball located on the de-capping rod that runs through the case neck on the way out.
There is no belling. The bullets for rifle rounds taper or have a bevel at the base end, in the case of boat tail bullets its a long taper. That is what lets you set them on/ in the the case before the seating die.

From Dillon's website:

The depriming assembly includes a carbide expander ball for "squeak-free," effortless neck expansion. This expander ball is located in the middle of the depriming stem to take advantage of superior initial leverage for easier extraction.
Click to expand...

http://www.dillonprecision.com/cont...on_Rifle_Dies__Individual_and_Three_Die_Sets_
 
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That's a classic photo of a "Seating" die screwed into the press to far.
Click to expand...

It would help if we had more case and less table top, but yes with a variation, if my cases looked like that I would think I had the die screwed in for crimping. If I was crimping I would trim all the cases to the same length, that way if I crushed the case at the shoulder/case body juncture I would crush all the cases in the same place.

F. Guffey
 
MG,I agree its likely at the seater station.Try backing the seater die itself back a turn to check it.
A lot of folks do not realize the seater die has a crimp function.If(in a single stage press) you screw the die down to contact the shellholder,you can expect this problem.

Particularly if there is no crimp groove in your bullet,There really isn't any place for the crimp to displace into.You have tremendous mechanical advantage at that point of the stroke.Its a bit like you are running the rounds through a beer can crusher.
 
The power funnel is set to low or the crimp/seat die is set to low. Also looks like there is no expander in the FL die??
 
When I get called to help someone locally, I see this pretty often,

It's usually one of two things,
It's the powder die screwed into the tool head too far,
The powder dropper MUST move up to unlock,
The charge bar MUST move fully to the rear to drop the full charge.

Most times, people get the dropper housing screwed down SOLID to the die,
The dropper doesn't move... The case gets crushed.

The other major issue is getting the thrower bar pinned against the back of the frame with the ram still moving up.

Make sure the power funnel/dropper moves on the die,
The two screws that hold powder dropper to die aren't fully tight,

Then put a case in the ram, Move it up to take a charge.

The slide bar should move FULLY to the rear AT THE TOP OF THE STROKE,
If the slide bar reaches the back of it's stroke before the ram gets fully 'UP', then back the die out of the tool head a little and try again.

When the charge bar hits fully BACKWARDS,
When the ram hit fully TOP, you have the die/powder dropper adjusted correctly.

---------

The next issue is what the rest of the guys are talking about,
The crimp in the SEATER die might be adjusted a little low.
Once the crimp is done, the seater die will continue to push down directly on the top lip of the case,
And the shoulder will collapse.

Exactly what you show in the picture.

With milk bottle cases like .223, .308, ect. the shoulder will give first with all that down force.

There are two solutions.

1. Is a LOT of work!
Since 'Once Fired' cases are often a LOT of different lengths,
And since the roll crimp needs an EXACT distance between bottom of case all the way up to top of the mouth of the case,
You will RESIZE, then TRIM each and every case to EXACTLY the same length so the crimper can give a consistent crimp.

The distance from the bottom of the case, to the top of the case MUST BE EXACT for a consistent crimp since the crimper lip pushes DOWN on the case from the top.

In my opinion, this might be OK for precisely measured & cut BENCH RIFLE brass,
But it sucks for Advancing Progressive loading.

2. The other option is a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
This die works with a collet off the shoulder, and presses the crimp in from the SIDES of the brass (all directions at once).

This crimp die really doesn't care what length the brass is from base to shoulder,

The shoulder is supported by the collet, so no expansion when the brass is slightly longer,
AND,
You get a crimp when the brass is slightly shorter, something that DOES NOT happen in a straight crimp die.

I back the seater die out a little so the roll crimp doesn't happen, just use the die to seat the bullets,
Then in the next station, a Lee factory crimp die to put a perfect crimp each and every time,
Without bulging cases, without missing crimping the short ones, without hassles of any kind...
 
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