case gauges

Tony Z

New member
Does anyone here know if a loaded (or test round-bullet in resized case) will fit into either the Wilson or Dillon case length gauges, to determine if the round will chamber? Please note, I'm talking about inserting the sized case, with the bullet set into it (bullet seat die set).

Thanks in advance!
 
Does anyone here know if a loaded (or test round-bullet in resized case) will fit into either the Wilson or Dillon case length gauges


Yes it will, the Wilson case gage is designed to measure fired and sized cases. Before you start drop a bullet thought the Wilson case gage. If the case is too long from the shoulder to the end of the neck it will protrude from the gage.

The Wilson case gage is a most accurate gage. It is a datum based tool.

F. Guffey
 
Yes. That is the purpose of a case gauge. A case gauge can tell alot including if you took out the flare, length and if the case had a bulge if it was removed.

Jeremy
 
Can a loaded round (or rather a "prepped" round, with bullet seated, no primer or powder, be placed in the gauge?
 
Can a loaded round (or rather a "prepped" round, with bullet seated, no primer or powder, be placed in the gauge?


Yes. A reloader with adapter capability can get a lot of use out of the Wilson case gage; others simply use it as a drop in gage.

F. Guffey
 
The Wilson and the Dillion case gauges are cut wide between the shoulder and base so you can measure the headspace of fired cases.



You can stick a loaded round into a Wilson or Dillion gauge to see is something goofy happened to the headspace after you inserted a bullet.





(these are Walkalong pics)

But if you want a "reamer" cut gauge, that is a gauge that is the dimension of the rifle chamber, then you will have a bit more looking.

This is my Sheridan Engineering gauge. I love gadgets like this, you can see the case clearance from the side. This is a "reamer" cut gauge.



Compass Lake Engineering cut me a reamer cut gage for a 223 match barrel. They used the exact same reamer that they used to chamber that barrel. They are worth contacting.

http://www.compasslake.com/
 
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The Wilson and the Dillion case gauges are cut wide between the shoulder and base so you can measure the headspace of fired cases.


If the case had head space that would make sense. The Wilson case gage is cut to measure a fired and sized case. There are other options. I have no trouble finding the time to go through barrels of barrels when looking for gages. I think nothing of paying $5.00 for a a barrel that has a chamber I do not have a gage for. I can use them ‘as-is’ or I can shorten the barrel to save space.

And then if I wanted one of those fancy gages I could simply mill the barrel cut off. And I have no problem measuring the diameter of the case, fired or sized in the Wilson case gage.

Then there are chamber gages,

F. Guffey
 
If the case had head space that would make sense. The Wilson case gage is cut to measure a fired and sized case

So this is your major malfunction about case head space gages?:

headspace guage

https://www.shootersforum.com/handloading-equipment/87526-headspace-guage.html

I have never agreed with L. Willis, Sinclair or Hornady when they labeled their ‘head space gages’ as being head space gages. I thought the practice was deceptive and I suggested anyone that wanted their money back should for any reason should get their money back, simply because they purchased a comparator that was advertised as a head space gage.

Well call up Willis, Sinclair, and Hornady and waste their time trying to get them to adopt your terminology. I personally don't care what your opinion on this matter is, I am going to call these things cartridge head space gauges and I am of the opinion, that most people will understand what I am talking about.

I read Ireland2's responses and he sure understands the subject better than you do.
 
Quote:
>>>if a go-gage is placed into a full length sizing die without the primer punch/sizer plug assemble installed the reloader can check the accuracy of the die<<<

No you can't.
Depends on 'who you' is

I am the fan of transfers and standards. The head space gage is a standard and a transfer.
Quote:
No you can't.
Yes 'I' can. First I must be able to verify the gage. I can do that. Because I can verify the gage I can make the gage.

I also verify shell holders, I measure the deck height of the shell holder. The shell holder deck height is .125", if it does not have a deck height of .125" it has an additional value and cost more.

F. Guffey

Ireland2 went off on a tangent and started making some stuff up, and then, he got caught. A reloader should be able to determine the die’s ability to return a case to minimum length/full length sized; with the simplest of tools.

Ireland2 ran out of gas and said “no you can’t”.

and I said:

Depends on 'who you' is

I did not get all snarky and bent out of shape.

F. Guffey
 
Again, I see a barrel of barrels with case gages attached; separating the gage from the barrel is not a problem, except for reloaders that used the barrels for tomato stakes. I have new barrels and I have take-off barrels with worn out barrels mixed in. A barrel with a chamber is a gage.

You like fancy tools, I make tools. You pay for the tools, I spend time digging through barrels or barrels because I have no hang-ups about head space. Everything does not have head space and every tool is not a head space tool.

Reminds me of the member of many forums, he called SAAMI, he was looking for support. He insisted the case had head space.

F. Guffey
 
What do you mean by adapter capability?

We have reloaders that insist the Wilson case gage is a drop in gage. Some are opinionated others do not know any better. Most get upset with me because I do not agree. Some use their thumb nail.

For me it is a small step when adapting a tool for other uses. Wilson included instructions from the beginning. My instruction suggests using a straight edge or a pocket rule. For me it was a small step to adapt the feeler gage. I use the feeler gage with the straight edge when determining the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.

And then there is ‘verify’; I verify the Wilson case gage. Not a problem for me, I do not have hang ups about head space. The Wilson case gage is a datum based tool. To make a datum based tool I drill a hole or I use a hole that has already been drilled. My ‘datums’ do not have case friendly edges.

F. Guffey
 
I still can`t figure out why no one has mentioned the RCBS Precision Mic.

There has to be some National Match Course shooters, that shoot M1 Garand or M-14 / M1A, that use this gage, reading this thread.

I don`t know how to post pictures so I`ll try to describe this tool.

The RCBS tool is a barrel micrometer...there is an inner cup with threads on the outside on one end and a hoe for the case neck and or bullet to stick through.
the other cup goes on the outside. it is threaded on the inside...
you put your case in the inner cup and screw the outer cup over the case.

there is a datum line marked on the inner cup, and Micrometer lines marked
on the edge of the outer; after you put a fired case, It will quickly tell you the headspace of your rifle chamber.

I have several rifles in .308 Win. they all have a different headspace. you will want to know what your rifles headspace is so you resize cases accordingly.

The gages I`ve seen pictured here are only go/no go type. I understand you can get one made with the same reamer that chambered your barrel, but you still don`t know how deep the reamer went in...I know in a perfect world all rifle chambers would be perfect, but they`re not!

I`ve had 2 Remington 700s that were too tight ... On one I had to take about .005 off the top of my shell holder to get the cases to go up into the die far enough to chamber. Now I have a dedicated shell holder for 1 rifle.

Many will be surprised to find factory loaded ammo that is .015 to .025 under the factory spec which I believe is 1.630...I`m sure someone will correct me if that is not correct, My new M1A came with a card that says my chamber is 1.631

It`s important to check your reloads because they don't all come out of the sizing die the same size...sometimes a 2nd pass is necessary.

I have these gages in .223 Rem, and .308 Win. I don`t know if they are available in other calibers.

they are important for loading gas guns...AR-15/M16...and garand type M1, M14, and Mini 14. which can all slam fire.

I hope someone that has one of these mics will post pics.
 
Case gauges

I suppose I have been doing it wrong for 45 years or so. I use a case gauge to measure the length of the case prior to trimming to the correct length. I find that quicker than using the caliper. I set the trimmer for the length needed and only have to set the case in and push the switch. Seems like a lot of talk only for some people to demonstrate their superior knowledge. Lots of talk and little accomplished.
 
Beargrass, I`m sorry that I came across as a know it all; but we were talking about headspace length instead of case length.

I started reloading in 1970 or 1971; back then a fixed case length was pretty much standard, and was what a lot of us used. I`m sure a lot of reloaders still use them, nothing wrong with that.
 
If the case had head space that would make sense. The Wilson case gage is cut to measure a fired and sized case.

Since I was able to figure out what your major malfunction is, I think it can be summarized as a terminology issue. I went to the SAAMI definitions web page and looked a their definitions for headspace,

http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=S

HEADSPACE

The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.

HEADSPACE GAGE
A device used in a firearm to determine the distance between the breech face and the chamber surface on which the cartridge seats. Also called Breeching Plug.

HEAD CLEARANCE
The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.


CASE GAGE
A fixture used to inspect cartridge case dimensions (i.e. length, diameters, thickness, etc.) to insure conformance to established tolerances.

CARTRIDGE CASE LENGTH
The dimensions from face of the head to the mouth.


SIZING
1. The reduction in diameter of a bullet by forcing it through a die of smaller diameter than the bullet.
2. The reduction in diameter of a cartridge case by forcing it into a die of smaller diameter than the case.


SAAMI does not have a definition for base to shoulder distance, nor does it have a definition for the clearance between case shoulder (rimless and rimmed cartridge) and chamber shoulder. This absence is the source of your major malfunction, and now that I have been able to identify the cause of the failure condition I am better able to understand your confusing and baffling retorts.

Well so what. If SAAMI has not defined this space, people are going to create their own definitions to explain the situation, make concise statements, and get the point across. Nature hates a vacuum and I am not interested in dancing around a terminology vacuum just to keep Lexicon Ayatollah's gainfully employed.

Now, I wish I had read Unclenick's statement on this a year ago, but I don't know if it would have registered:

223 headspace


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5817078&postcount=20

Fretless,

I think you may be confusing headspace with head dimensions. Headspace is a confusing term, so I'll explain it here for anyone else reading, even if that's not the issue with your description.

First, it is important to understand that headspace is actually a chamber dimension and not a cartridge case dimension. The term comes from rimfire cartridges, for which the rimed portion of the case is also the head (the pressure barrier). Headspace in a rimfire chamber is literally the amount of front-to-back space the chamber has for the head to fit into. It's the distance from the breechface (the bolt face in a rifle) to the bottom of the recess cut for the rim of the cartridge to fit into.

The importance controlling the chamber headspace when you make a gun is threefold. It determines how far the firing pin can drive the loose fitting cartridge forward before it meets enough resistance for the pin to ignite the priming mix. It determines how much the case will have to expand while containing pressure, a situation for which over expansion risks breeching the brass and leaking hot, high pressure gases than can damage the gun and shooter. The looseness of the fit can affect accuracy the weapon.

Over time, as centerfire cartridges were developed, headspace ceased to mean room for the case head in the chamber, but rather came to mean the distance from the breech face to whatever surface stops the cartridge from moving further forward. For rimfire cartridges and rimmed centerfire cartridges, this is still the rim. For an auto pistol cartridge its the distance from the breech to the shoulder in the chamber that the case mouth stops against. For a belted magnum cartridge it's the distance from the breech face to the step in the chamber that the belt of the case stops against. And for a bottleneck cartridge case, like a .223/5.56 NATO, it's the distance from the breech face to the shoulder of the chamber profile.

In that last instance, the bottleneck rifle case, the shoulders is a conical surface, so the question arises as to where on the shoulder's slope you want to measure the headspace from? It used to be taken from the breech face to the point where the shoulder meets the side of the case body (body/shoulder intersect, actually). You will find Hatcher and other older writers using this number. The problem with it is that since chambers have to be slightly wider than cartridge cases for cartridges to slip into the chamber freely, the case doesn't actually stop against that corner. Rather it centers in the cone of the shoulder and is stopped by part of the chamber shoulder is further forward. So, something had to be changed.

The solution was to declare a particular diameter of every cartridge design's shoulder to be the diameter used measure both the chamber and cartridge cases from to determine fit. So, it is the distance from the breech face of the closed bolt to that particular diameter on the chamber shoulder that is called the headspace of your rifle. The measuring diameter is called the shoulder datum. Datum is is just a word that means a defined measuring reference. If you look at chamber and cartridge drawings, because both have tolerances in opposite directions, the only dimension that is the same for both is that shoulder datum.

A habit that has developed is to refer to measuring from the outside of the case head to the shoulder datum on the case as Case Headspace. It's actually the headspace-filling space on the case, and how much smaller it is than the chamber headspace determines how loose the fit is.

Below is an illustration of the .308 Winchester's chamber and case headspace and where the shoulder datum is located, as determined by a plane perpendicular to the axis of both chamber and cartridge that passes through the shoulder at the SAAMI specified datum diameter for the .308.
308Headspace_zps6e69ada2.jpg


For your .223, the shoulder datum diameter is 0.330", but the principle is the same. You'll notice case headspace maximum is often larger than chamber headspace minimum. This is because the chamber is fatter than the case and a closing bolt can easily compress a case enough to expand it to fill the chamber. However, that practice is not best for accuracy or feeding. It is merely acceptable as a limit.


As to your problem of narrowing a case head, the case head is much thicker brass than the rest of the case all the way to the 0.125" deck height of the case holder. You should not need to size it any further down than that. If you do, it suggests the brass is either defective or has been expanded to a degree that indicates it was subjected to unsafe pressure. In that instance the case should be tossed.

It sure took Unclenick a lot of words to explain this. He did an outstanding job, it took more than a short blurb of "cartridges don't have headspace", to get the point across. I am not saying it is a waste of time, but I am not going to spend this amount of effort each post trying to explain base to shoulder dimensions for cartridge cases. I believe the world is going to shift also, and start calling that dimension "Case Headspace" or "Cartridge Headspace". You see, advertisers don't want to spend hundreds of words dancing around the SAAMI terminology vacuum, they need something that is short, concise, so in one title line they can quickly describe the product they want to sell and get the its functional purpose across to the consumer. They don't have the time, nor are they going to spend wasted effort keeping Lexicon Ayatollah's happy.

The Lexicon Ayatollah's protecting the purity of SAAMI definitions are going to be buried in advertizing copy, the world will shift, and the Ayatollah's will enjoy a lifetime of ranting against the injustice and imprecision of it all.

L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage 30-30 Winchester

http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/58...yb8Dg4O3Oo5o0qYVwydrL7bcCUtOy0NdGKBoCo_Hw_wcB
 
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And for years reloaders on reloading forums used a drawing of a case with a line drawn through the shoulder. The drawing had an arrow pointing to the line the line was identified as a datum line. And then it was decided the line was half way between the shoulder/neck juncture and the shoulder/case body juncture. And I ask how could that be if the 25/06, 270 and 30/06 have the same datum.

The 3/8”/.375” is one of the most common datums, in the beginning I said I make datums, I collect datums and on occasion I purchase datums. To measure the length of a case from the datum to the case head requires a round hole, if I want to match SAAMI specs I must match the diameter of the datum. If I am using the hole as a comparator when measured before and again after the diameter of the hole must be larger in diameter than the neck and smaller in diameter than the case body.

Reloaders still insist on using case friendly datums, my datums have a very sharp edge, if a reloader wants their measurements to match SAAMI measurements, the edge of the round hole used to find the datum must be sharp with no case friendly radiys.

F. Guffey
 
Now, I wish I had read Unclenick's statement on this a year ago, but I don't know if it would have registered:

Vanity; and then there are jealousies, in the work place I have seen professional jealousies. And then there is the Internet.

Many years ago there was a gun smith that did not spend a lot of time looking at the problem. He developed methods and or techniques that saved time. The smiths he worked with blamed him for all the problems, they could not ask him ‘HOW’.

F. Guffey
 
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