I'm about to load some light loads in .444 Marlin cases. I found some starting powder charges here in a Dec. 2004 thread by Bob Thompson and Leftoverdj. These charges, quoted from a Lyman Cast Bullet book leave considerable empty space in the case. Years ago reloaders were dealing with this situation by filling the case with cream-of-wheat over the powder. Is this practice still viable? Or is there a new solution?
Case filler material
- Thread starter mike.105
- Start date
Cream-of-wheat lost favor to kapok and then Dacron years ago. However, I had a .444 Marlin that I ended-up with a couple of pits in the barrel many years ago. I was discussing it with a pharmacist (they have chemistry education), and he told me that when Dacron burns, it has water as a by-product of combustion. So, prompt cleaning if you decide to go with Dacron would seem to be prudent. I suggest you go over to the Cast Boolits forum...they are the authority on such things as fillers.
g.willikers
New member
I used good ole' toilet paper.
It keeps the powder where it belongs and burns easily without noticeable residue.
It keeps the powder where it belongs and burns easily without noticeable residue.
Whatever you do, don't stuff a wad [of anything] against the powder and leave a vacant space above it to the bullet base.
"Puff/Stretch" the filler out [dacron, TP, natural kapok] so that it just occupies the void. It doesn't have to hold the powder "hard"
against the primer. Just keep it from moving all over the case in normal handling.
See also this string: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533432
"Puff/Stretch" the filler out [dacron, TP, natural kapok] so that it just occupies the void. It doesn't have to hold the powder "hard"
against the primer. Just keep it from moving all over the case in normal handling.
See also this string: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533432
Dacron, or even cotton wool, when used as case filler, does not burn. That is, it is NOT consumed (or very little of it, anyway). Almost all of it goes straight out the end of the barrel, behind the bullet. If you recover tufts of such material, after firing cartridges loaded with it, you'll find that it only gets singed.
Use of fillers is a touchy subject, fraught with controversy. I've been using it for more than 10 years, so I've learned a little about the safe use of it. Here are a few "rules of thumb" :
1) Cereal fillers, such as Cream of Wheat, absorb moisture. So, in bottle-necked rifle cases, they can form a plug in the neck, causing a huge pressure spike. They should NOT be used for filler, unless the material is very dry. So, it should be dried in an oven and kept in a plastic bag, tightly sealed. The other issue with such materials is WEIGHT. These fillers weigh quite a bit.... and the weight MUST be factored into the load. So, the amount of powder used in a given load must be reduced accordingly.
Best to simply avoid using materials like cereals for filler altogether.
2) Materials such as toilet paper, shredded paper (even confetti) can move around and compress over time and allow powder migration into the filler - which is very bad. S.E.E. can be caused by this, as well as weak, incomplete combustion.
3) The easiest to use filler material - and the safest - is dacron or even cotton wool (fiber fill). The weight does not have to be measured or powder charge reduced (it is very light). It is gas porous and will not form a plug in the neck of a bottle-necked cartridge. As mentioned above, it doesn't really burn, let alone melt, it is almost entirely ejected from the end of the barrel. If the amount used varies a bit between cartridges, that does not tend to produce accuracy issues, so the amount used for each load can be "eye-balled", rather than carefully weighed.
It IS very important, with use of ANY filler, to fill up ALL of the empty space in the cartridge - do NOT leave an air space between the bottom pf the bullet and the top of the filler. Further, never "pack" the filler down into the case. Just gently push it into the case, leaving it relatively "fluffy" (in the case of fiber fillers, that is). NEVER use fillers in medium to hot loads - ONLY in light loads, too light to be safe with the powder used due to insufficient filling of the case. Do NOT use fillers (of any kind) with fast pistol powders, such as Bullseye. Nothing will be gained by that. Fillers DO increase chamber pressures. Dacron or cotton wool produce the least increase....and are thus, the safest. The safest type of cartridge for filler use is one with a straight-walled case, though it can be used safely in bottle-necked cases.
Filler CAN be used with either cast or jacketed bullets, with no problems. But, remember, filler is ONLY indicated in LIGHT loads. Used properly, an accuracy improvement often occurs, vs. no filler (and a large air space in the case).
Use of fillers is a touchy subject, fraught with controversy. I've been using it for more than 10 years, so I've learned a little about the safe use of it. Here are a few "rules of thumb" :
1) Cereal fillers, such as Cream of Wheat, absorb moisture. So, in bottle-necked rifle cases, they can form a plug in the neck, causing a huge pressure spike. They should NOT be used for filler, unless the material is very dry. So, it should be dried in an oven and kept in a plastic bag, tightly sealed. The other issue with such materials is WEIGHT. These fillers weigh quite a bit.... and the weight MUST be factored into the load. So, the amount of powder used in a given load must be reduced accordingly.
Best to simply avoid using materials like cereals for filler altogether.
2) Materials such as toilet paper, shredded paper (even confetti) can move around and compress over time and allow powder migration into the filler - which is very bad. S.E.E. can be caused by this, as well as weak, incomplete combustion.
3) The easiest to use filler material - and the safest - is dacron or even cotton wool (fiber fill). The weight does not have to be measured or powder charge reduced (it is very light). It is gas porous and will not form a plug in the neck of a bottle-necked cartridge. As mentioned above, it doesn't really burn, let alone melt, it is almost entirely ejected from the end of the barrel. If the amount used varies a bit between cartridges, that does not tend to produce accuracy issues, so the amount used for each load can be "eye-balled", rather than carefully weighed.
It IS very important, with use of ANY filler, to fill up ALL of the empty space in the cartridge - do NOT leave an air space between the bottom pf the bullet and the top of the filler. Further, never "pack" the filler down into the case. Just gently push it into the case, leaving it relatively "fluffy" (in the case of fiber fillers, that is). NEVER use fillers in medium to hot loads - ONLY in light loads, too light to be safe with the powder used due to insufficient filling of the case. Do NOT use fillers (of any kind) with fast pistol powders, such as Bullseye. Nothing will be gained by that. Fillers DO increase chamber pressures. Dacron or cotton wool produce the least increase....and are thus, the safest. The safest type of cartridge for filler use is one with a straight-walled case, though it can be used safely in bottle-necked cases.
Filler CAN be used with either cast or jacketed bullets, with no problems. But, remember, filler is ONLY indicated in LIGHT loads. Used properly, an accuracy improvement often occurs, vs. no filler (and a large air space in the case).
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Why use fillers? Use AA5744 and you will walk away from fillers as the powder does not need it. I have used AA5744 in the 45/70 and with cast bullets in the 303 Brit, 30-06, 30-30, etc. Accurate Arms claims the powder is appropriate for the big blackpowder cases, like the 45-120, and I believe it.
Fillers are just another thing to get wrong and if you can dump them, dump them.
Fillers are just another thing to get wrong and if you can dump them, dump them.
g.willikers
New member
Thanks, wpsdlrg, for that info.
Maybe the reason using toilet paper worked well is that the reloads were used soon after making them.
Generally the next day or weekend.
No time for the problems you mention to occur.
And I only added filler because it was once a popular and recommended thing to do.
But no longer bothered with it after discovering that it wasn't really needed.
Maybe the reason using toilet paper worked well is that the reloads were used soon after making them.
Generally the next day or weekend.
No time for the problems you mention to occur.
And I only added filler because it was once a popular and recommended thing to do.
But no longer bothered with it after discovering that it wasn't really needed.
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mikejonestkd
New member
Yes, and it is called Trail Boss.
AA5744 is the best all-round big-case/low-to-moderate load powder around.
It still benefits from powder positioning.
We are all familiar with "the usual suspects" (TP, dacron, kapok, cereal, etc)...
But has anyone (else) tried what is described in posts 1-3 HERE for both really
fast powder and positioner? See especially post #3)
See also: THE LOAD by Ed Harris from 20-30 years ago.
It still benefits from powder positioning.
We are all familiar with "the usual suspects" (TP, dacron, kapok, cereal, etc)...
But has anyone (else) tried what is described in posts 1-3 HERE for both really
fast powder and positioner? See especially post #3)
See also: THE LOAD by Ed Harris from 20-30 years ago.
Just one stuffed animal? We had a lab that would take ‘it’ apart and hide all the pieces.
Then there is that thing about things that can be compressed. When compressed they become more dense. I do not mind a little air, air is fluid, it flows and it can be compressed.
F. Guffey
I still use dacron fiber fill, but only in one load. I have an old Yugo M48, which I cut down into a "sporter" carbine (17" barrel), years ago. I have no desire to hammer my shoulder with it, so I load the cartridges to approximately 30/30 velocity/ pressure. I normally use Hodgdon Benchmark for this, but IMR-3031 works about as well. Since I am only using 33.0 grains in the long Mauser case, the possibility exists for S.E.E. So, I use dacron filler to make up the difference. The resulting load (with the 170 grain Hornady round-nose bullet) is fairly accurate (about 3" at 200 yards).
If I substituted a slower powder, which would fill the case, I'd get reduced performance, because some of the powder would likely burn outside of the (short) barrel. I've used Benchmark or 3031 in this application for years, with no problems whatsoever. If the rifle in question had a 23" barrel, as it did originally, then a slower powder would be indicated.
This is an example of the use of filler that happens to be appropriate. There MAY be a powder that would more nearly fill the case, but offer equal performance.....but I haven't found it. Merely substituting a much slower powder to get the case filled doesn't work. Substituting a much faster powder, such as a pistol powder.....and living with the empty space in the case, is no solution, either. That method would produce nothing like the velocity (around 2100 fps), which I am getting. If, however, I was loading my 8mm cartridges to "normal" pressure/ velocity, I wouldn't need filler - and I wouldn't use any.
Just goes to prove that there are exceptions that may demand unique solutions. In other words, not every situation is "cut and dried".
If I substituted a slower powder, which would fill the case, I'd get reduced performance, because some of the powder would likely burn outside of the (short) barrel. I've used Benchmark or 3031 in this application for years, with no problems whatsoever. If the rifle in question had a 23" barrel, as it did originally, then a slower powder would be indicated.
This is an example of the use of filler that happens to be appropriate. There MAY be a powder that would more nearly fill the case, but offer equal performance.....but I haven't found it. Merely substituting a much slower powder to get the case filled doesn't work. Substituting a much faster powder, such as a pistol powder.....and living with the empty space in the case, is no solution, either. That method would produce nothing like the velocity (around 2100 fps), which I am getting. If, however, I was loading my 8mm cartridges to "normal" pressure/ velocity, I wouldn't need filler - and I wouldn't use any.
Just goes to prove that there are exceptions that may demand unique solutions. In other words, not every situation is "cut and dried".
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case filler material - Cudos
Thanks to y'all for the information and advice on using Dacron & Office Depot starch (shipping) peanuts and toilet paper, too for case filler.
The suggestions to try using the new (to me) BP substitutes, AA5744 and IMR Trail Boss are very exciting.
Thanks too for the referral to Cast Boolits forum.
Thanks to y'all for the information and advice on using Dacron & Office Depot starch (shipping) peanuts and toilet paper, too for case filler.
The suggestions to try using the new (to me) BP substitutes, AA5744 and IMR Trail Boss are very exciting.
Thanks too for the referral to Cast Boolits forum.
HI,
I am new to this forum... and only a bit less new to reloading.
I've found a nice receipt on reduced load for my 8mm RM by Steve Gash:
A good moderate load is the Speer 170-grain Semi-Spitzer with 55.0 grains of H-4895 at a leisurely 2,597 fps. This mimics the 8×57 Mauser and makes a terrific low-recoil load for deer.
Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/reloading/reloading-the-8mm-remington-mag/#ixzz4Y6pY3U2N
I've asked my supplier at Reload-Swiss to recalculate Hodgodon's H-4895 into RS-40. He advised me to use cotton wool as a filler. I've read above in this topic, that fillers tend to increase chamber pressures. 55gr is well 29gr below 8mm Remington Magnum's case capacity. Do you think I should go for filler in that reduced load?
I'd appreciate your suggestions on that. Thanks:
Raf
I am new to this forum... and only a bit less new to reloading.
I've found a nice receipt on reduced load for my 8mm RM by Steve Gash:
A good moderate load is the Speer 170-grain Semi-Spitzer with 55.0 grains of H-4895 at a leisurely 2,597 fps. This mimics the 8×57 Mauser and makes a terrific low-recoil load for deer.
Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/reloading/reloading-the-8mm-remington-mag/#ixzz4Y6pY3U2N
I've asked my supplier at Reload-Swiss to recalculate Hodgodon's H-4895 into RS-40. He advised me to use cotton wool as a filler. I've read above in this topic, that fillers tend to increase chamber pressures. 55gr is well 29gr below 8mm Remington Magnum's case capacity. Do you think I should go for filler in that reduced load?
I'd appreciate your suggestions on that. Thanks:
Raf