Carry guns and modification.

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HiBC

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I read a long and adamant thread on this topic from 2014.
Very knowledgeable people,including several moderators,advised it may be a bad idea in a post-SD shooting courtroom to have aftermarket trigger parts.
I'm paying attention.
I have some 1911's.One is an old Randall Raider Commander style .I've put a Wilson beavertail,a quality slide stop,an Ed Brown barrel,etc in it.
I installed a Cylinder and Slide Duty/Carry grade hammer/sear/disconnect setup,4 1/2 lb.I did not modify these parts.Everything functions properly.
Another I built from a Remington slide and an RIA frame.C+S duty/carry trigger parts.
I put together an ATI Philippine 1911 for my SIL.Some of the small parts,like the slidestop,had a Harbor freight grade appearance.I put in a good slide stop,C+S trigger/hammer/disconnect ,duty/carry grade. Unmodified.

Are all of these unacceptable to carry?

My main question.I decided to order a S+W M+P 9c. Because I intended to install APEX forward set and lighter trigger,I ordered the M+P with the thumb safety.I am accustomed to the 1911 style safety,and the M+P is the same drill.

After reading the 2014 thread,I'm having second thoughts.

If I put in the spring for a 5 lb pull,and check it,am I OK with the APEX parts?

APEX also offers a duty/carry kit.

I notice APEX advertises a number of police depts. routinely install these kits in duty guns.

I get it that I do not want a 3 1/2 lb pull on a carry gun. I'm happy to go 5 lb or 5 1/2.
I'd like to have the longer trigger,short travel and reset.With the thumb safety,is that unacceptable?

Or,is the straight duty grade acceptable? It is less improvement,but I can compromise.

Thanks
 
I don't think anybody can answer this question well.

A good shoot is a good shoot, a questionable one leads to questions. If you can answer those questions in a way that clearly show your innocence, you will be fine. If not, you won't be.

Parts are just one more question.


Sounds like your story is roughly that you do a lot of home gunsmithing, you could attempt to convey your untrained competence. As another untrained home gunsmith I worry about your plug n play approach on the 1911 platform....

Still, if you shoot, and you say you meant to shoot, the only think in play are things questioning your mental condition about why you shot.

Religious group+gun owner+more than 3 guns+home gunsmithing+a few Facebook quotes+an errant tweet and your freedom may be in the balance.
 
Get the M&Pc, but don't modify it. Shoot about 600 rounds through it, then see if you want to modify it first.

Anything can and will be used against you in a trial, but we should have evidence, even anecdotes that this is an issue in actual cases.
 
I think another major concern is not just criminal liability but also civil suit liability. Once the shooter is cleared of any criminal liability, they could face a suit by the injured and/or family of the deceased.

A good attorney representing the injured and/or deceased will question any and everything. I have read a lot of debates about this even including reloaded ammunition.
 
Allow me to explain this from another viewpoint. I've been deposed as a factual defendant in a civil case, served as a factual witness in another civil case, and served as juror on a federal criminal case. While none involved firearms or shootings, all were eye openers on how the judicial system works. Some things that you will hopefully find useful:

1. You are not in control of very much. Your opportunity to explain your views will be limited by the effectiveness of your legal counsel, and key information might never be presented in court

2. If it goes to jury, you are at the mercy of 12 people who are very likely uninformed and inexperienced in what information they are receiving. They are also instructed to not seek any information outside of what is presented in court. If the opposing legal counsel has done their job in jury selection, there won't be many - or any - jurors who are like you.

3. Opposing counsel will use ANYTHING he can find to raise doubt against you. Your counsel will need expert witnesses to try to counter each of those issues.

You get the idea. I carry as close to stock as I can for EDC. I limit my tinkering to range guns. If I am ever involved in a shooting, I'd rather give the opposing attorney nothing that will raise the least doubt.
 
A good shoot is a good shoot,....
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Well, it may be, but unless that "shoot" was just an element of carefully written fiction or part of a textbook, and unless all of the facts were given to us, or unless an entire real-world incident was recorded from beginning to end from multiple vantage points on a sound stage, we will have no way of really knowing whether a "shoot" was a "good" one.

That is simply because we cannot know all of what actually happened. Whether a shooting was justified will have to be determined, after the fact and by others, on the basis of the totality of incomplete, fragmentary evidence. That evidence may be contradictory; eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and if the person against whom force was used, or if anyone who is sympathetic to the person, provides testimony, one can almost guarantee that it will not be favorable to a shooter who claims to be a defender.

In the criminal justice system, there is no "good guy" going in, and a self proclaimed defender does not get to decide that a shoot was "good.". In some cases it may seem obvious that an act was lawfully justified, and it may in some cases be rather obvious--or it may not. Any contradictions in the shooter's account that may surface, anything that could give the jurors the impression that the shooter may have been predisposed toward the use of force, and/or anything that may damage the shooter's credibility, could make the shooter's day in court a most unenviable one.

If there is a trial, the firearm will be evaluated and introduced into evidence.

If the firearm has been modified, that will become known and most likely discussed.

It the trigger is something other than factory standard, you will want expert witnesses to be able to explain why the modifications were responsible and appropriate.

The trigger pull can figure in a criminal case (state of mind, and so forth) and in a civil case (unintentional discharge made more likely by the modification).
 
Thanks.
I do not really plug and play with the 1911.
Most parts require some fitting.I have a Marvel Sear jig and know how to use it.I routinely have a Colt brand thumb safety on hand,assuming I may need to fit a safety.

I have had very good luck with the C+S components.Most mod I have had to do is slightly shorten a sear due to zero over cock.

I prefer not to alter them.I do not pursue minimum engagement,etc.

My main question would be have APEX parts gained credibility for carry,assuming heavy enough pull.(5lbs or so)

So far,feedback is modify nothing,it seems.
 
I do not worry about this. I only have 1 pistol and it is carried occasionally. It is my Springfield 1911 Loaded model, which i have put the following parts on just to customize it to my liking better

Ed brown Arched grooved MSH
Ed brown Gi spring plug and cap
Colt teardrop right hand only thumb safety
Harrison designs extreme service trigger
Hogue fancy checkered goncalo alves grips

And i have an Ed brown extractor waiting for when the factory pary kicks the bucket

The pistol has a roughly 3.5-4lb trigger, which is very very nice, it is also smooth as glass and breaks and resets perfectly.

I feel that i would only use my weapon if i felt my life was in serious danger, in this case it should be pretty easy to prove, you would think.

You threatened my life and i feared for my safety, my life is more important than yours, sp i defended my life. End of story
 
A good shoot is a good shoot . . . .
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While that's a very catchy phrase, it is sorely deficient in reflecting the legal realities that follow an SD shooting. A better, more accurate statement would be something like "a good shoot is a good shoot, after the police, investigators, judge and jury decide that it is."

It's important to understand that, at The Moment of Bang, at least two legal processes can be set in motion: (1) criminal charges; and (2) civil lawsuits. The two are quite different, having different elements and legal standards of proof. It's also quite possible that more than two different processes may be set in motion. Consider the possibility that a missed shot could hit an innocent bystander, for example.

Someone mentioned handloads earlier. If you've hung around TFL very long, you may know that's a pet topic of mine. Handloads, however, are a whole different kettle of fish from weapon modifications. (That's the technical legal term, don't you know? ;)) My primary objection to handloads is an evidentiary one and deals in experts, Gunshot Residue, and exemplar evidence. However, that's not the question that was asked, so I'll leave it at that.

With respect to weapon modifications, my concern (from a legal perspective) is the civil arena, not the criminal one. In most criminal cases, the defendant's best position is basically "prove it." Paraphrasing, obviously. The defendant doesn't have to assist in the investigation, and the burden lies at all times with the State to prove each and every element of the crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt. In SD shootings, the defendant/shooter has to take the position, again paraphrasing, that "I did it. I shot him intentionally, but I had a really REALLY good reason." In many (if not most) jurisdictions, the Defendant must offer up at least some evidence that the shooting was, in fact, in self-defense. That will often mean that the defendant has to take the stand & testify. (You can exercise your 5th Amendment right, but it may not be wise to do so.)

In the civil context, the most likely scenario is that of a negligence or wrongful death case, IMNSHO. In that case, the Plaintiff will have to prove by a preponderance of the evidence ("more likely than not," which is less than beyond a reasonable doubt) that: (1) the defendant owed a duty of care to the Plaintiff; (2) that the defendant breached that duty; and (3) that the Plaintiff was injured by that breach. The Plaintiff could try to make the case in several ways. Two come immediately to mind: (a) the shooter was negligent in making the decision to shoot; or (b) the shooter didn't actually mean to shoot the Plaintiff, but nonetheless did so, and did so negligently. (Think: hair trigger & accidentally squeezing off a round.)

The key distinction between weapon modifications and handloads is this: Barring catastrophic failure of your firearm, the weapon modifications will still be around for the State Crime Lab to test when the shooting is all over. Handloads will not. Both weapon modifications and handloads are variables, and each could require experts to explain technical matters to the jury. Every one who carries has to weigh for him- or herself how many variables he or she wants to inject into possible criminal or civil trials.
 
Also remember, if you have been arrested the odds are you will never see that pistol again. Carrying your best barbecue gun is bad for a whole variety of reasons.
 
I wonder if the same idea applies to those carry "abnormally powerful" or "competition based" handguns. If I have a handgun specifically designed for shooting sports or one using a round "so powerful the FBI decided not to carry it" is it going to come back to haunt me if I ever have to use it? What about "specialty ammunition specifically designed to be as deadly as possible"?

On the other hand if I use the handgun and ammunition the FBI issues it might be spun to "equipment designed for military and law enforcement."

Obviously those practicing law can look back at case records and the like (which might be a long process) and anticipate potential problems more readily and accurately then the rest of us. They are things I worry about from time to time
 
The pistol has a roughly 3.5-4lb trigger, which is very very nice, it is also smooth as glass and breaks and resets perfectly.
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Sounds light to me.

If your attorney brought in a police armorer to give his expert opinion, would he have an objective basis for testifying for you?

If a prosecuting attorney or plaintiff's attorney brought in a police armorer to give his expert opinion, would he testify against you?

I feel that i would only use my weapon if i felt my life was in serious danger,...
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GOOD!

... in this case it should be pretty easy to prove, you would think.
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Depends upon the evidence.

You threatened my life and i feared for my safety, my life is more important than yours, sp i defended my life. End of story
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That's not the way it works.
 
I appreciate the feedback.
I'm here to ask because I do not know.I'm not here to argue with those who give me their best straight answer.

While certainly APEX will have their own agenda,I just wrote them and asked for their side of things.

I could sure put up an argument for what,IMO,SHOULD be....

That's not worth much confronted by what IS.
Thanks

Lohman,YES!! The way our world is going,I could see a bib overall carry for a double stack 38 Super Caspian with a comp and Docter Red dot.
 
What you are seeing ...is there is no definitive yes or no answer !!

Is carrying a modified gun a good idea...maybe - maybe not.../ is it going to make a difference in court - probably.../ ...but there are too many factors involved ( did the modifications make the gun more dangerous, did a modification cause you to fire inadvertently and on and on...

If you custom order a 1911 with a 3 1/2 lb - to a 4 1/2 lb trigger ...is that bad --- no, not inherently bad - in fact it's a standard spec on a Wilson combat CQB model as an example ( and it's the gun I carry)...and it's designed to be carried....../ will a lawyer twist that around - sure !

Is a Sig 226 with a factory DA/SA trigger a safer carry gun because it has a 10 lb DA & a 4.4 lb SA factory trigger.....maybe, maybe not.....is there a "standard" for triggers in carry guns ?? No, there are opinions.....but no "standard"....

Should you carry reloads ...most experts say no.../ ...because it'll be an issue probably...

If you modify a trigger ....and some expert asserts you were negligent / you will have to defend what you did and why & assert that some well known mfg's offer exactly what you did.....does this mean yes or no --- no, it doesn't. You are not going to get a straight answer to your question !

Will this discussion ...help you evaluate your risk...I hope so ! Because the reality is...if you carry, if you ever use that gun....all of your personal assets and finances " are in play" - retirement funds, etc....so only you can evaluate your risk and decide...whether the modifications you are making are done right or not...or are you being negligent...do you know what you are doing or not....

Risk management ....it's your risk - and you need to evaluate and manage it.

Would I do my own trigger job on a carry gun ...no, probably not...--- but I know i'm not capable of doing my own trigger jobs --- I can change springs, all the little stuff ....but not a full trigger job - filing and fitting a sear, etc... / but i'll trust Wilson combat to do it right and I like my 1911's that I carry with a 3.5 to 4.5 lb trigger in them...
 
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We've had some extensive discussions on this subject in the past. Some modifications are likely to be fairly innocuous. Night sights, refinishing, some part swaps, a trigger job resulting in a service/duty trigger, and similar modifications are less likely to be a problem. But I would avoid modifications like disabling a safety device, a light competition grade trigger, or inflammatory decorations like Punisher grips or skull engravings.

Here are likes to some threads in which the subject has been extensively discussed"

 
A good attorney representing the accused will refute every one of 'em too. The only people who win law suits are the lawyers.
Dunno about Stateside, but up here, you can win a suit and still get nothing. Courts do not require the loser to pay up. Up to the plaintiff to collect.
"...legal standards of proof..." That not vary by State too?
 
T. O'Heir said:
A good attorney representing the accused will refute every one of 'em too.
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Maybe so, and maybe not. That will be up to a judge &/or jury to decide. In any event, it's still introducing another variable into an already complex equation.
T. O'Heir said:
. . . ."...legal standards of proof..." That not vary by State too?
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In the area of civil law, and in some nuanced ways, yes. AFAIK, in criminal law, it's always beyond a reasonable doubt. Where the distinctions come into play are how SD is handled.
 
I concur with cc-hangfire. Re: Zincwarrior on having their firearm returned to them, once the criminal case clears, it should be returned (some agencies make you get an attorney to get it back). However, don't expect any agency to take loving care of your prized piece while it is in custody. It's tagged and tossed carelessly on the shelf or stuffed into a drawer. It could be scratched, dinged, pawed over and left unclean.

Frankly, I don't like the idea of super customizing anything I would be carrying, but that's just me. I can see night sights if it isn't already equipped with them and ambidextrous safety if it is a 1911 or other pistol that has a manually operated safety (I'm southpaw).
 
A good attorney representing the accused will refute every one of 'em too.
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If the issue at hand is a trigger pull weight modification or a change in a safety, that "good attorney" would have a rough time "refuting" the testimony of an expert witness to whose expert qualifications he or she has stipulated.

If it is an inflammatory cosmetic add-on, there's just no way to go about countering it. The decoration is described and shown to the jury, and they make up their minds. Nothing need be said about it.
 
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