Cannot get 190gr Nosler HPBT to seat w/o excessive runout

B

brasscollector

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I am having an issue getting Nosler 190gr custom competition HPBTs to seat without excessive runout (+.005"). I am loading for 30-06 and seating them to Nosler OAL of 3.330". I have a Lyman seating die which will normally seat 168gr Hornady Amaxs to .003" or less (usually around .001-.002") at the Hornady OAL of 3.220". No matter where I adjust the seating depth to I cannot get less than .005" runout and sometimes as much as .010" or more. Results at the range were less than stellar for a target bullet for my standards. It seems as if these have a bell around the bottom of the jacket just before the boattail somewhere in the neighborhood of .0005". I have used once fired Remington + Winchester and also tried some brand new Hornady cases with no change in the results.
 
Perhaps try leaving the seating die and/or seating stem slightly loose to see if that will help the bullets self align. Sometimes that improves runout but not guaranteed. Also try leaving sizing die slightly loose for possible improved self alignment of the case during sizing.
 
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How deep were you seating the Amax bullets? Is the boat tail still in the neck?

Is this for a Garand or a bolt action rifle?

How close to the brass neck are you measuring runout?

What is your runout measuring setup?

Jimro
 
Leaving the seating stem and/or die loose did not seem to correct the condition. Nor did it make it much, if any, worse.

The amax bullets are being seated to hornady spec of 3.220". They appear to be seated in far enough that the boat tail is down in the case so the neck has all the bearing surface to grab onto. The noslers are not being seated far enough in so that the boat tail is inside the case neck. I have not tried seating the noslers any deeper than the book spec of 3.330".

This is loading for a bolt rifle. This is a mauser action with a magazine length of 3.4".

I have the Hornady concentricity tool, not the best setup but a workable tool if you can figure it out. I measure at a couple points along the case. I have found that if I measure on the case just behind the shoulder I get my largest reading. For example, if I measure a sized/trimmed case with the mandrel in the case neck may get .0015"-.002" if measured on the neck. Without removing the case from the fixture and just resetting the dial indicator to measure the case back just behind the shoulder will usually read .003" on the same case.

Most of my sized/expander ball/trimmed/prepped cases will measure somewhere in the .001"-.002" range. Seating the amax bullets may add another .0005"-.002" to the final product, sometimes it adds nothing.
 
Ok, so bolt action rifle. When you say results on target aren't good, what do you mean by that? Are you looking for sub MOA? Sub half-MOA?

Another question, have you adjusted your die so that it doesn't apply the roll crimp, the only Lyman seating dies I find for 30-06 have built in roll crimp? I do this on my Lee seating dies with crimp by placing a nickle on the top of the shell holder then adjusting the die stem down to get the seating depth I want.

If you are already doing that, disregard, but eliminating the crimp action of a seating die is a very good thing for accuracy loads with match bullets.

Beyond that step (which I hope solves your problem if you haven't already tried it) I recommend a Lee collet resizer die (around 20 bucks) for your reloads in the future, RCBS neck turning tool (around 55 bucks) to uniform brass neck thickness, and replacing your seater die with a Forster or RCBS match seater.

I really hate to recommend spending more money on a problem, but sometimes spending money on better tools is worth it.

Jimro
 
Have you considered the fact that your rifle just doesn't like that bullet? I've been reloading for accuracy for quite a while and have never bothered to check runout....never had a problem getting good groups from suitable bullets.
 
When you say results on target aren't good, what do you mean by that? Are you looking for sub MOA? Sub half-MOA?
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At this point I would be happy with MOA (or better.. :rolleyes:). Hunting grade bullets shoot about 1" or so @ 100yds so some assumptions were made..

I did adjust my die as you had stated and it seemed to help with the a-max bullets. I had the die adjusted down thinking I wanted as much case support during seating as possible. That theory has been abandoned now. I have shelved the noslers. Perhaps I might make another attempt with them once a quality seating die has been added to the mix.

Another assumption on my part would be the brass (once fired mostly) moving/flexing during seating causing the runout which at times measured .011" :eek: on my Hornady tool(w nosler bullets, not amax). I can only guess that the same amount of runout would measure almost twice that on a sinclair or similar tool.

Have you considered the fact that your rifle just doesn't like that bullet?
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Yes, the thought crossed my mind. In fact I'm at the point where I'm not sure I like the bullet either.. I learned some good stuff about concentricity and what my rifle likes. Good things to know moving onward.
 
Another assumption on my part would be the brass (once fired mostly) moving/flexing during seating causing the runout which at times measured .011" on my Hornady tool(w nosler bullets, not amax). I can only guess that the same amount of runout would measure almost twice that on a sinclair or similar tool.
Click to expand...

Well if you are getting different results from Amax and Nosler bullets, odds are something weird is going on in the seating die.

But with accuracy over 1 MOA, I'd look more to changing a powder charge. At 200 yards even runout of 0.005" should be capable of under MOA performance. A lot of competitors sort for runout, reserving only the truest for the long range stages of a match and leaving the 0.005 loads for the 200 yard line.

Jimro
 
I am not trying to be deceptive but I will admit the extreme runout was seen using a Hornady custom-grade seating die, not the Lyman die. The Lyman die has provided at worst about .007-.008" of runout with the Noslers (likely averaging between .002-.0065"). The Hornady seater was never better than .005/.006". Experimenting with both sizers and seaters I worked out the best combination was the Hornady sizer and Lyman seater. The Lyman sizer, which I used originally to load the test rounds, has an expander that only measures about .305". The Hornady is somewhere between .306-.307". Could the "missing" .0015" of expander diameter have caused it? I spent several hours over the last weekend pressing and spot checking brass. I never went back to using the Lyman sizer so I cannot attest to the fact that the undersized expander was the culprit. I did check the Hornady seater on the amaxs and some 150 FMJBTs and it seemed the shorter the bullet the better that particular die performed. I'm hypothesizing this could be from the shorter bullet producing less leverage as it gets pressed into the case. The Hornady seater is a floating type and there seems to be more "slop" in my 30-06 and 308 floating sleeves than my other custom-grade dies exhibit. I was using an a-max seating stem so the tip of the bullets touching was not an issue. I also measured the amax stem and found there to be almost .001" of runout with that alone...

I was loading with IMR 4350 in the starting range of charges (5@50gr and 5@51gr IIRC). That was indicated in the Nosler book to be the most accurate load tested out of their barrel. The groups were more like 3 shots in a close cluster (1MOA) with a couple fliers each. That, to me, indicates a concentricity issue or a dirty barrel, but this barrel was just wet down fairly recently (less than 30 rounds since) and I can attest it is as clean as it needs to be to shoot decent.
 
Also to be clear, some (a lot) of this was just pressing brass and seating bullets. Not actually making ammunition so results on paper with the Hornady seater/Nosler 190s never occurred.
I'm sure most of my obsession with concentric ammo comes from the instructions that came with the Hornady tool. It states that best accuracy is going to come from less than .002/,003" runout. If you are saying that .005" is going to be fine than I will go with that figure as acceptable for most of what I am attempting. 600yds is about the practical limit of what's available to me anyway.
I have a Hornady L-n-L single-stage press and had the 30-06 custom grade dies set to make ammunition for my Garand. It made excellent Garand ammunition but I pretty much stuck with the 150gr FMJBTs. Not wanting to disturb those settings I came across the Lyman set which I purposed for the bolt. I see Lyman makes a replacement/upgraded carbide expander which should work in my A-A die. Then I can put the Hornady set back into use making my Garand some food ;).
I apoligize if the last few posts seem to ramble incoherently. I'm a little punch drunk after about 26hrs of work and 4.5hrs of sleep with the latest snowfall.
 
I use those 190 grain Accubonds long range bullets and Nosler claims best accuracy with IMR 4350, did my own study, IMR 7828 does 2 times better.
Maybe brass had runout before you seated..
 
I made a seater, I can not call it a seater die because it does not have a die body. It does a better job of seating bullets than a seating die. Then there is that part about seating dies, the seating die does not have case body support.

F. Guffey
 
Have you disassembled the seat dies and checked the seating stem with the bullet?

The seating stem should be recessed so as to contact the bullet on the ogive not the bullet tip.

If the cup in the seating stem is too shallow and the bullet tip is making contact before the cup can contact the ogive it may tilt it at an angle causing excessive runout.

It's an easy thing to check, just press a bullet into the seating stem and see where it makes contact.
 
Bought a set of Redding FL dies (A-series). Sized and seated some 190 Noslers today in both R-P and Winchester 2x fired brass. I never got more than .004" runout and that was just one round (had one with zero runout and most in the .002"-.003"). I will take them to the range and see how they perform.
 
Have you trimmed/squared your case mouths? A non-square case mouth gets you off to a bad start.
Do you carefully chamfer your case mouths?
Brush out the case necks.
When sizing,if it takes much effort over the expander ball,pulling out,you may be distorting your cases.You might try the neck dry lube.

Check shellholder number to make sure it is correct.

Check ram and shellholder for powder granule or any other alignment issue.

Check seating stem for crud .

It would surprise me if the Nosler bullets were the issue.
 
Just to clarify the cases were trimmed square and minimally chamferred all along. My chamber and the lower-end 'target' loads don't seem to move the brass as much as other bolt guns I have. I prepped the brass once and this time when the brass went through the die it came out pretty much to the same dimensions as the last time, great. Running a nylon brush through the neck is excellent advice. I used to have some sticky expander extractions when I started out reloading bottleneck cases. I tried the nylon brush a while back and things have been MUCH smoother since.

I'm likely going to be satisfied with the .004" or less runout currently being provided by my redding dies. Not that this is some commercial for redding, I'm sure other brands would perform just as well or better. This is what I have working for me right now so I'm going with it. I'm attributing the excessive runout to an undersized expander and a sloppy fitting "floating sleeve" on the seating die. I'm certainly not bashing the Nosler bullets. I use Noslers in other guns I own with great results so I was pretty sure it was the tooling or me causing the runout.
 
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