Canada ... what's the latest RKBA news?

J

Jeff Thomas

New member
Soon I'll be debating a Canadian, and I need to study their current firearms / RKBA situation. I'm finishing 'The Samurai, the Mountie and the Cowboy' (by Kopel) now, but it is somewhat dated at this point.

Can you suggest good sources, 'net or otherwise, to help me get ready for his arguments? Thanks.

Regards from AZ
 
Jeff, debating about our foolish laws.... Good luck. Even understanding them takes a law degree. Two web sites for more info would be the good guys at,

National Firearms (our NRA)

or

The BadGuys (the government) at [url="http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/"]www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/Default-en.html

If your looking for some personal insight into how things work up here I could try and answer your questions (as best I can)

In a nutshell, it pretty much sucks up here, and this is a real crunch time as all Canadian gun owners need to be licenced in the next 6 months. Only about 200k have,(a drop in the bucket) and its felt that it will be IMPOSSIBLE to complete even the licencing portion of this great Canadian scam. Most folks I know have not even begun the process and even without the safety course it takes about 4 months to process the application. Its felt most of the issued licences have gone to exsisting handgun owners, cause without one of these PAL licences or an older FAC its impossible to get permits to TRANSPORT your handgun to a range, and trust me ranges are few and far between up here. Why dont you guys help us out and send a half a platoon of MARINES up here and "liberate" us.....

WCG

[This message has been edited by westcangunner (edited May 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by westcangunner (edited May 24, 2000).]
 
Thanks, westcangunner. And, welcome to TFL.

I do hope you'll like it here. Great bunch of people ... this is like a massive, interactive firearms / freedom encyclopedia.

And, we'll see about that platoon. It might take a little while to ship off, cause our Marines will be debating the proper selection of firepower for awhile ... ;)

Regards from AZ
 
Jeff-a few basic facts

The cost incurred by the Canadian Goverenment to register a gun. As of January 14th, 2000 this was $ (Candian) 1252.96
per gun.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police say hat "the number of owners appliying for liscences wil be much lower than forecast, which suggests very low compliance, less than 10%."

The Canadian goverenment estimates that there are 7.4 million privately owned firearms (rifles, pistols, and shotguns) in Canada. If only 700.000 are registered due to wide spread civil disobedience the program will obviously be a complete failure.

Unless we assume that Canadian goverenment agencies such as the RCMP are putting out false statistics, the program is a complete failure!
 
No, the registration program is an utter success.

Those millions of people who did NOT register can now be carted off by the government at any time.

As in an Ayn Rand book, government only has power over criminals, e.g. rapists and murderers - but there are too few of these - so they have to make NEW criminals.

And so what if these don't register. All FUTURE purchasers DO have to register.


Battler.
 
Jeff, If its not too sensitive an issue, who will you be debating and why. Most of our "anti gunners" up here are as, or more mis-informed as the ones to the south.

Hard Ball

The Goverenment and RCMP Flunkies deceive the Canadian public ... nooooooo not here! Its a well know fact that the highest level of the RCMP outright LIED about the "firearm crime rate" in Canada to ram this mis-guided Bill C68 through in the first place.

Up here in Canada its not "about the children" its "about safety". Hell for the kind of dough thats being WASTED up here in the name of safety, they could have given us all gun safes.

IMO the program is already a complete failure and will only get worse as the system is overwhelmed by the law abiding folks attempting to comply. Our only hope is the government will see the mistake they have made and try and do some damage control before the next election. (I can dream can't I ??)

Battler

The fear I have and many of my friends is that by not caving in and registering, we put ourselves in an very untenable position. Im not all that worried about being carted of to jail, they dont have room anyways, but Im sure worried about losing all my firearms. I'm kinda fond of the little suckers... I'm a "law abider" and will PROBABLY (unless I can think up another solution) register my long guns (my handguns have always been registered) but I like everyone else, will be waiting till the ABSOLUTE last minute, and those forms are very complex and open for many mistakes.

Hell some of my old collector Cooey 22 RF bolt actions and single shot shotguns dont even have serial numbers.

Yup the funs just about to begin.....

WCG
 
I have gone thru the whole process of getting licensed /registration and I have to admit it wasnt as painfull as I thought, but this whole process is a pretty big waste of money. The ironic thing is crime in my country will not decrease because of it, the criminals could care less about the gun laws. I believe our government has a hidden agenda, to the person who wants to get into firearms for the first time this process will act to deter any new people to this way of life, people like myself who have grown up with guns will not be deterred. I bet our M.P's in ottawa dont know one end of a gun from the other and they are making the rules!!!
 
BTW, this debate is with a Canadian citizen, and it is not a public debate. However, a good friend will be there as well, and I want to make sure I handle this with all possible accuracy and professionalism. Not to mention, success.

Regarding your registration scheme in Canada, how do you folks get past the very real concern that part of that hidden agenda is the ultimate confiscation of firearms? One group at a time, of course ... in the spirit of 'reasonable gun control'.

[For those lurkers who think firearms confiscation is a symptom of paranoia, please see www.sksbuyback.org )

Thanks. Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited May 26, 2000).]
 
big bore: You got it, as they said in the NRA meeting, slowly increased licencing requirements/pain chased people away from the shooting sports/firearms.

Believe it or not, they didn't really confiscate any guns in Australia. They just upped the licencing requirements to where you have to show a "need" for what you have - and if you can't get a licence for a certain class of weapon, you have to hand it in.

I.e. if you live in a city, and you get a signiature from someone on whose land you can shoot (not federal) you can own a single-shot rimfire. Technically a licence exists for semis; but danged if I know how anyone would qualify for one.


Battler.
 
Jeff, There is NO WAY to get past that concern. We all know that the confiscation of our firearms is the real agenda. It seems like this is the same the world over. It is not in the best interests of ANY government or politicion for the PEOPLE to have guns. The biggest difference is that in your country (for now anyway) your forefathers had the foresight to give you some RIGHTS as in the second amendment.

They are going to confiscate our guns in Canada, I dont know when but they are now in "phase one" of the process. Until they find a "politicly correct" way to show up at our doors and seize our property (without having to pay us) they will simply just make it as difficult and expensive as they can to own, possess or use a firearm. Most "normal" folks will simply stay away because of the hassle and by this method our government has effectivly controlled most of the sheeple.

Battler is right, they dont really need to worry about the old guns or if they get registered or not. "Law abiders" will be afraid to show them or use them so they will stay hidden or stashed away. Any new guns will be registered at the source with a great amount of hassle and expense to the user.

As an example, for "newbie" to get and fire a handgun in Canada it costs about 300 to 500 dollars, (firearm safety courses and club memberships) plus the cost of the handgun ( a SW 357 686 costs about 5 to 6 hundred used), and will take about 6 to 8 months till its on the range, and thats if EVERYTHING goes just right. (Kinda makes your Brady seem like a good deal eh?)

In contrast a SW 357 686 can be bought at the bar for 500 bucks and you get to shoot it right away....

Getting a long gun is a bit better but not much (one less course to take)

They already know where all the handguns and fullautos are in Canada (the legal ones anyways) They have effectivly banned the sale, importation and transfer of all short barreled and small calibre handguns (these would have already been confiscated if they could have found some way to do it without having to pay restitution) and they are now processing our "semi auto assault type weapons" I think the only one left thats not restricted or prohibited is the Ruger mini 14/30, the firearm that "caused" the current rash of gun control up here. (a mini 14 was used to slaughter the women at Polytech years and years ago)

So Jeff, let us know how your "debate" with your Canadian friend goes. If he wants to give it a try, and he lives in the west, Id be glad to take him "varmint hunting"

WCG
 
WCG,

The choice you have is whether or not to invoke PERSONAL civil disobedience. I have chosen to do so, in that I carry concealed without a "permit". I also carry in any state I'm in. I also carry a loaded pistol in my car, easily accessible to me, when I travel. I carry in schools. I carry in gov't buildings (without metal detectors, of course!)

So, I am a felon many times over. I am (or WAS) also a law-abiding citizen. At one time I had CCW permits from three states, so I passed every background check there is. I'm so clean I could get a class III firearm (and probably WILL this year).

BUT, a couple years ago, I decided that the government did NOT have the right to force myself or my loved ones to DIE in order to satisfy their "laws". So now I no longer care. I reached overload. I'm sure many on this board feel exactly as I do.

I will NEVER register my guns, or submit to "licensing" of my God-given right. If YOU do (and it's YOUR choice), you WILL lose your firearms eventually. Just a matter of time. So, you have to ask yourself, do you want your children to have your guns after you die? If the answer is YES, you'd better NOT register them.

And that's no bull. And as far as being able to shoot them, 1) you better get THREE lifetimes worth of ammo put back, and 2) last time I checked, there was LOTS of "wilderness" in Canada.

Register and lose them. For no compensation. For no reason (other than "it's for the children"). The death of Canada's Gun Culture is at hand. Soon you'll go the way of the bloody Brits and the Aussies. All you have to do to make that happen is... obey those "laws"...
 
"I'm so clean I could get a class III firearm (and probably WILL this year). "

Buying a class III isn't too consistent with your no-registering-break-all-the laws.

Why are you obeying this one? You will certainly be "registered".

I know why - you break THIS one the feds will kill you or put you away forever.

When they start enforcing the others to this degree, interesting to see how many don't comply (I predict few guns above ground).


Battler.
 
Battler, et al, please save me a little time here ... if you don't comply with the registration scheme, what are the penalties? Is it a felony (if you use that term), and do you 'lose' your civil rights?

Thanks. Regards from AZ
 
Battler,

You're right... And wrong.

I want to get a LEGAL class III so I can go shooting with it, and if stopped by a LEO, I can say, "yup, she's legal as can be". I don't want to be looking over my shoulder each time I rock 'n roll.

Also, I have no reliable "source" for a clandestine class III. With MY luck, the guy would be a BATman. I want to protect my family, not rot in prison for 20 years.

My "civil disobedience" is limited to the ability to defend my life, and the lives of my family. THAT is defensible in court. Illegal trafficking in machine guns is a bit harder to defend.

Don't you think?

But IF national confiscation were ever attempted, I would NOT submit to it. You have to pick your battles. With your handle, you should know that better than any of us.
 
The cost incurred by the Canadian Goverenment to register a gun. As of January 14th, 2000 this was $ (Candian) 1252.96
per gun.
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police say hat "the number of owners appliying for liscences wil be much lower than forecast, which suggests very low compliance, less than 10%."
The Canadian goverenment estimates that there are 7.4 million privately owned firearms (rifles, pistols, and shotguns) in Canada.

In a May 5th updte the Canadian Firearms Centere revealed that only 349, 612 lisceces have been issues while 94,368 are being processed for a total of 443,930. This is approximatelt 6% of the total which must be completed by January 1, 2001to comply with the law.
 
Dennis, I really see your point, and I respect your choice. We were too complacent up here while our rights were being trampled on. Remember up here were not citizens, were subjects, and have very little in the way of rights and protections that you Americans enjoy. The LEO in Canada have never required a warrant to search your house, all they need is a "writ of assistance" there is no "right to remain silent" up here, and "probable cause" is something we see and hear about on American TV. Because I have more than 3 restricted firearms and more than 10 firearms in total, the new Bill C68 gives the Firearms Police and the Police in general the right to "inspect" my firearms, to make sure Im complying with the safe storage regulations. (and you guys are worried about trigger locks)

There is going to be wide spread "civil disobediance" up here but as Battler points out it doesnt matter, we have already lost the battle. By not registering those guns and getting the required permits we lose the enjoyment and use of them anyway, cause the penalty if caught could be severe, and IMO this is hardly a win :(

The only hope we have left up here is to pray that the entire registration system gets overwhelmed, (very likely), and our government comes to there senses. (very unlikely) We cant even hope for a change in government to help us out, cause there isnt another choice yet, there will be soon, but not in time to fix this mess.

Its too late for us, Canada is your closest example of what could be in store for you guys. We didnt fight long enough, or hard enough, we all just thought it wouldnt
/ couldnt happen.

We were wrong!!

Have a great long weekend

WCG
 
I recieved the following via email recently, being asked to get the word out. These are the words of a Marine.:

"Present Canadian firearms laws consist of an extremely convoluted 1200 or
so pages of legalese. It would take me pages of text to try to explain
even the basics. In a nutshell, there are 3 classes of firearm in this
country - non-restricted (your typical bolt-action hunting rifles and
obsolete bolt-action military rifles), restricted (handguns with a barrel
over 4" and some military-style semi-auto rifles, depending on the model
and overall length), and prohibited (the majority of self-loading military
and military-style firearms).

With regard to self-loading military and military-style long-guns, the
only ones which remain non-restricted (eg. available to anyone with a
Firearms Possession and Acquisition License) are the M1 Garand, SVT-40
Tokarev, SKS, Springfield M1A and Robarm M-96. The M-96 is currently
non-restricted only because it is so new that the gun grabbers haven't yet
gotten around to prohibiting it. Firearms in the restricted category
include the M1 Carbine (due to barrel length under 18.5") and the AR-15.
The AR-15 has not yet been prohibited due to a lobbying effort by the
Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, which sponsors service rifle
shooting. The AR-15 happens to be the commercial variant of the
current-issue C-7 rifle. Every other military-style self-loader you can
think of has been prohibited (FN FALs, HKs of all types, AKs of all types,
Galil, AUG, all SMGs and carbine variants, etc, etc). The prohibited
firearms can only be possessed by grandfathered persons who have
continuously owned at least one firearm in a specific prohibited category,
since the applicable category was created in 1978, 1992, 1994, 1995, and/or
1998). For instance, full-autos were prohibited in 1978. If you didn't
own one by the cut-off date, and have not continuously owned at least one
full-auto ever since, you can never have one. Not that it matters, since
under our latest 1998 law, permits will not be issued to transport them to
a range for firing. Full-auto owners are stuck with them in their houses,
and can no longer legally use their lawfully-registered private property.

In the U.S. further importation was banned, but everything currently in
the country can be owned by just about anyone (less Class 3). This created
a seller's market, where military-style gun values have tripled. In
Canada, we have suffered the opposite effect. Because just about every
desirable military-style firearm is now grandfathered in one (or more) of
the 5 different classes of prohibited firearm, those firearms have little
or no market value. There are maybe 1500 grandfathered owners in this
country, and the only way the military-style firearms can change hands is
among similarly grandfathered collectors. With the stroke of a pen, the
Canadian Government effectively made 2/3 of my gun collection worthless.

But wait - it gets worse. The Canadian Government's publicly-stated intent
is to remove "evil" military-style firearms from the hands of the Canadian
public within a generation. Because grandfathered firearms cannot be
bequeathed or otherwise passed on from the current generation of owners,
they will be confiscated by the government when the current owner dies, all
without any compensation whatsoever to the estate. In effect, collectors
such as myself will be subjected to delayed confiscated without
compensation. A total loss of investment, despite the fact that everything
I have was (prior to 1992), non-restricted and completely legal to own -
the same government that has since banned those firearms even charged me
sales tax at the time. Picture someone going into your bank account and
stealing $40,000 - that's what they've done to me, in the interests of p
romoting a "culture of safety" in our socially-engineered liberal utopia.
Personally, I don't think they'll even live up to their promise of waiting
until I die to confiscate my firearms - I give it 5 years at most, and
they'll change their minds again and seize my guns in the interests of
"public safety". This, despite the fact that no legally-registered
military-style firearm has ever been used in the commission of an offence
in Canada. According to the government's own statistics, hunting rifles,
sawed-off shotguns and illegally smuggled handguns (in that order) are the
firearm of choice for criminal acts in Canada. However, "evil" looking
firearms are an easy target for generating false public concern, and those
firearms are therefore the ones that have been targetted by the
gun-grabbers. Not that they will stop there - our latest 1998 law requires
among other things, universal registration of every firearm in the country.

The writing is clearly on the wall for "Grandpa's duck-gun" and "Junior's
.22 Cooey". The pattern was well-established with the military-style
firearms - in 1992 the government declared them restricted, but said that
if we registered them we could keep them. In 1994 the government declared
them prohibited and grandfathered (they now knew where they all were - at
least the ones owned by law-abiding citizens who had dutifully registered
them). In 1998, they piled on another layer of bureacratic idiocy which
makes the continued legal use of my firearms exceedingly difficult. I now
have to apply for a "Special Authority to Possess" permit, every single
time I wish to take one of my prohibited military-style firearms to an
established shooting range for target practice. I have to apply a minimum
of two weeks in advance, list every gun I wish to transport, and indicate
the specific date I want to go shooting. Even then, the local Firearms
Officer can arbitrarily deny me a permit, and I have no recourse but to
wage a very expensive court battle in an effort to secure the right to
continue using my legally-registered private property for its sole
remaining legitimate purpose (target shooting on a government-sanctioned
rifle range). Obviously, there is no rational justification for
subjecting me to these bureaucratic hoops - by registering my firearms and
complying with all of the various ludicrous regulations imposed upon me
over the past 10 years I have clearly demonstrated that I am not the
problem. Regardless, the Canadian government wishes to actively discourage
continued ownership of "evil" firearms by even the law-abiding
grandfathered owners, and is therefore doing everything it can to make life
miserable for us.

Then there are the fundamental constitutional rights I have surrendered
just because I happen to own 10 or more restricted or prohibited firearms.
I no longer have the right against unreasonable search and seizure, nor
the right to silence. A firearms officer can demand to inspect the portion
of my home containing firearms at any time (including my computer
hard-drive and any area of the home where he "suspects" that there may be
firearms-related items or records). Note that he does not require a
warrant issued by a judge to do this - just owning the firearms is
considered "cause". I must let the firearms officer into my home, I must
actively assist him in his search of my premises, and I must answer his
questions - failure to do any of the above will result in an immediate
charge of obstruction of justice. Remember - I have not committed any
crime here, nor am I suspected of any wrong-doing other than to own my
legally-registered firearms.

On the pretext of inspecting for "safe storage", the firearms officer will
attempt to find some minor infraction which gives him "cause" to
immediately seize my entire collection. The onus to prove innocence is
then placed upon me, and I must wage a costly court battle to win back my
private property. This has already happened to numerous collectors such as
myself. I'm just waiting for the knock on my door, after I somehow piss
them off by demanding the transport permits I am supposed to be entitled to
on an "occasional basis" (their words, not mine). Oh yeah - then there
are the "domestic abuse" and "anonymous tip" provisions of the legislation.
Anyone who has a "beef" with me can pick up the phone, dial a
well-advertised toll-free number, state an allegation, and I will wake up
one night to a SWAT team pointing an MP-5 at my head and seizing my
firearms. Again, the onus to prove innocence rests with me if I want my
guns back and wish to avoid a trumped up criminal charge.

You should see the application form for a Firearms License - it is 4 pages
long, requires passport photos and three professional character references,
and a list of all "broken relationships" over the past 5 years. They will
call any persons involved in a broken relationship that you list - how many
ex-girlfriends and wives do you think are going to be supportive of your
request for a firearms license? An unsubstantiated concern expressed by
anyone of them will result in an immediate denial of your license (or
license renewal). Not that you will be given an opportunity to tell your
side of the story, since all information collected during "background
checks" is strictly confidential. If you are attempting to renew a license
(required every 5 years) and are rejected for some reason, that's it - you
lose your guns. Lovely eh?

I could go on and on, as there are plenty of other "gems" hidden away in
our firearms legislation. However my fingers are getting tired, and I
suspect you get the gist of what I'm saying. The bottom line is that
firearms ownership in Canada is a lose-lose proposition. The government up
here will eventually get my guns - the only question is whether or not they
will wait until I die, or if they will simply seize them under some tru
mped-up charge or a new piece of "social safety" legislation. Believe me,
it's not a pleasant situation being a "deemed" criminal simply because you
happen to own a bunch of legally-registered firearms. What is really
infuriating on top of everything else, is that our legal system is much
harder on the legal owners of firearms than it is on criminals who use
illegal firearms in the commission of violent crime. A collector caught
with a 6 round rifle mag will be vigorously prosecuted with a view towards
sentencing at the high end of the 10 year maximum imprisonment in a federal
penitentiary. An armed robber will generally be allowed to plea-bargain
away any firearms charges, and will get on average, 4 years for a murder
(with time off for good behaviour). Yep, that sure seems proportional and
fair?...

Well, enough of the rant."
 
Dennis Olson: Fair enough. But any semi CAN be converted to full-auto quite easily - especially the scary looking ones - not that any of us would. (BTW - I never have nor ever WILL break federal/state/local firearms laws.)

My handle? Australians on the board would get it, it's hard to explain; but it certainly does not mean anything "tough".



westcangunner and
G-Freeman
: That's horrible and horrifying.


Battler
NRA and GOA


Battler.
 
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