Can you tell me anything about this 1911?

black_hog_down

New member
Given to me by my father who carried it in Vietnam. He was not issued this gun. It was given to him by a family member.
Serial number is from 1913.
I have no intention of selling it but I would like to clean it up and put it in my range rotation.
Should I restore it?
Cerakote?
Parkerize?
I think I will probably just buff it, change the springs and grips and fire away.
Thanks!
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Leave it original.
Any "improvements" will definitely reduce its value and appeal.
If it shoots well and you want to use it, just keep it clean.
If you want a shiny new looking 1911, get another one.
 
Don't you dare do anything to the finish! Clean it, lube it, shoot it occasionally and preserve it. It is a priceless family heirloom. Your father entrusted it to you. :)
 
I wouldn't "buff" it, or do anything other than clean it up, oil it, and put it away.

And I also wouldn't shoot it. http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?60680-Should-I-shoot-my-original-USGI-M1911

If you absolutely MUST shoot it, use a shock-buff, and use the wimpiest ammo you can lay your hands on. Those early slides were not heat treated and it's not uncommon to see the front section of the slide shear off. Once that happens, you no longer have a family heirloom pistol, you have a box of pistol parts.

One thing you might (or might not) consider is chasing down a set of the correct walnut, double diamond grips for a 1913 M1911. That said, I assume these grips are what your father carried in Vietnam so you may not want to change them. Personal choice.
 
As others have said, other than light cleaning, leave it the way it is.
It's a piece of family history---and re-finishing it will destroy it's
value as a collector gun.

I do have to ask--- what's your source for that 1913 date? My Wilson's,
and the Colt factory website SN lookup date it to 1918.
 
a set of the correct walnut, double diamond grips for a 1913 M1911.

I would point out that the "correct" double diamond grips are only "correct" if your desire is to restore the look of the pistol as it appeared in 1913.

Since the later 1920s (and the adoption of the 1911A1) military policy has been to maintain 1911 pistols with A1 parts, as needed.

this creates two classes of "correct" appearance. There is correct for the day it left the factory, and there is correct for a gun that has served up through the Viet Nam era (or beyond). One might call them "original issue" and "service issue" classes.

Obviously, an original issue condition gun will have all the period correct parts, and the only difference from the day it left the factory will be the degree of finish wear.

A Service issue class 1911 could have any combination of 1911 and 1911A1 parts, up to the only 1911 part being the frame, and be entirely historically correct and accurate.

GI pistols got carried a lot more than they got fired. Some got carried a lot more than others. A gun that went into a Navy arms locker before WWI and did its service life on guard duty and the occasional shore patrol tends to look a bit different from one that went to an Army or Marine rifle company and served its duty life in and out of ground combat.

However there is no hard & fast rule. During my time inspecting Army small arms in Europe in the 70s, I found three 1911s still in service in the brigade I supported. All had the later (WWII) style grips, but otherwise were all original parts.

I read through the linked page, and the stuff from the fellow at the APG museum is boilerplate advice about shooting ANY collectible firearm (or any old one, really).

The information provided by another poster there, about the heat treating of slides, is new to me, and somewhat at odds with what I believed, so I will have to do some checking to see which of us is right. I had heard that the heat treating of GI guns was exactly the same as the commercial version, until WWII, when production pressure led to heat treating of the slide being dropped entirely to save time & money.

I would have no issues shooting the OP's pistol occasionally. GI ball or reload equivalent ONLY!!

As to the finish of the gun, there are only two options I would find acceptable.

One is to leave it the hell alone (other than cleaning it) Don't buff, polish or do anything else to it, and don't apply any kind of spray on/baked on finish, or you will (eventually) find out which circle of hell is reserved for people who to that...:D Accept the dings, pits, and damage as honest wear, proud badges of a long and honorable service.

The other option I would find personally acceptable is to have it professionally restored. Turnbull is the best I know at that kind of work, they can literally make it look like it did the day it left the factory floor. Not at all cheap, though.

Its your gun, and your choice, but if it was the gun my dad carried (in Viet Nam or anywhere else) I would PRESERVE it, and not refinish it in any way.
(if you reach a point in your life where you don't have your dad, but still have his gun(s), you'll understand my point in a way I cannot put into words here.)

That's just me, and I'm known to be a " bit odd" about such things.
 
44 AMP said:
I would point out that the "correct" double diamond grips are only "correct" if your desire is to restore the look of the pistol as it appeared in 1913.

Since the later 1920s (and the adoption of the 1911A1) military policy has been to maintain 1911 pistols with A1 parts, as needed.

this creates two classes of "correct" appearance. There is correct for the day it left the factory, and there is correct for a gun that has served up through the Viet Nam era (or beyond). One might call them "original issue" and "service issue" classes.

Obviously, an original issue condition gun will have all the period correct parts, and the only difference from the day it left the factory will be the degree of finish wear.

A Service issue class 1911 could have any combination of 1911 and 1911A1 parts, up to the only 1911 part being the frame, and be entirely historically correct and accurate.
Completely correct, and I agree. That's why I ended by saying it's a personal choice. The nice thing about grips is that you can keep both sets, and "restore" it to Vietnam carry condition by simply swapping out the grips, and at the same time make it more "original issue correct" by keeping a set of double diamond grips on hand.

That said -- if it were mine, I would not risk shooting it. I once had a genuine M1911 that a local Colt expert said looked original. (I have since come to doubt that, but that was then and this is now.) I bought a new recoil spring for it, and installed a shock-buff -- and then I read Scott Gahimer's explanation of why the old ones should not be shot. So I didn't shoot it. I had (and still have) a couple of others that aren't collectible, so I keep and shoot those.
 
I've done some checking with a friend who has an extensive library, and also has one of the Turnbull "recreations" of the pre WWI guns.

A 1913 made 1911 would have been finished in the SAME commercial blue as the civilian "govt model". The entire slide would have been heat treated. About 1917 or so, the finish changed to a very black "blue". Parkerized didn't come along until much later.

Also, I was wrong, they did not drop heat treating the slide completely during WWII, the locking lug area was still heat treated, but the rest of the slide wasn't. This info is technically hearsay, to me, but I got it from a friend I trust, who was close friends with one of the guys who actually did it during WWII and told him about it. How he would put the wrapped slide in a wire fixture with only the locking lug area exposed for the heat treatment. Also how this same guy (now passed on,) said that while you would have problems if you shot a WWII 1911A1 a LOT, those same problems (like the slides cracking/breaking) never seemed to show up on WWI era guns.

FWIW, I trust the info, though I have no proof I can show.

I would also add that changing the grips was a company level function. Company armorers could change the grips for any, or no reason. Being as how every 1911 I saw still in service in the 70s with all the other original parts, had the later (WWII type) plastic checkered grips, and not the wood originals. I think that it is quite likely that the wood grips were often changed to plastic for uniformity of appearance, rather than because they needed replacement for serviceability.
 
How does one get to keep a firearm that person carried in the Army serving in Vietnam. I carried a blued Colt Detective .38 Special (when wearing civilian clothing in Saigon) and a Colt 1911 .45 ACP (when wearing fatigues and on uniformed missions in the RSSZ.) Although I never fired either handgun except at paper targets, I would certainly like to have them as memoirs of my long-ago history.
 
OP- I agree with doing nothing to it but oiling it and shooting it. But because there is nothing but recollections that may not be set in stone- I think I would personally shy away from +P ammo. And, I probably wouldn't try to shoot it like a race gun with crazy high round counts. But, that's just my personal itch.
 
44 AMP said:
I've done some checking with a friend who has an extensive library, and also has one of the Turnbull "recreations" of the pre WWI guns.

A 1913 made 1911 would have been finished in the SAME commercial blue as the civilian "govt model". The entire slide would have been heat treated. About 1917 or so, the finish changed to a very black "blue". Parkerized didn't come along until much later.
The experts (1911 Tuner, who used to post here, and Scott Gahimer, who knows more about the M1911/M1911A1 than anybody since Charles Clawson) disagree.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?96845-Heat-Treated-Slides
 
So after spending a little more time with her, and breaking her down and oiling and rubbing...
There is a really nice dark brown patina that I would NEVER mess with.
Unfortunately, it is clear that this is not the original barrel. It is in VERY good shape. I'm thinking somebody checked one out of the armory and swapped barrels before he was discharged. I'll have to ask him.
So anyway, I'm gonna keep her the way she is and shoot her a little from time to time. Maybe some wood grips to replace the cheap plastic ones...
Thanks!
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B_H_D, When you slowly lower the hammer, can you see what's causing those shiny rub spots on the hammer? Due to the age of it, I doubt machine burrs are still there, but maybe a high spot in the slide, or an out of square hammer pin hole? Just curious.

Edit, those aren't exactly "cheap" plastic grips. I think "correct for where it's been" grips may be more correcterer.
 
It probably got the barrel the same place it did the arched mainspring housing.
Army maintenance. Barrels were considered wear items and replaced as required. A tough campaign and not enough cleaning of a barrel shot with chlorate primed ammo would put it in need of a new one.

How does one get to keep a firearm that person carried in the Army serving in Vietnam.

He walks through demob with it in his personal effects and is not noticed misappropriating government property.
 
Respectfully, original Models of 1911 make poor range guns. They have 'soft slides' meaning that they do not even have localized heat treating like 1911A1s.

They do not even have recoil plates in the breechface like 1911A1s (unless somebody had it done).

It is possible to peen the breechface on a 'soft slide' Model of 1911. Just an FYI.
 
The experts (1911 Tuner, who used to post here, and Scott Gahimer, who knows more about the M1911/M1911A1 than anybody since Charles Clawson) disagree.

Ok, I'm wrong, again. Not my day so I'll be quiet for a while. :o
 
GI grips

I wouldnt replace a thing, I would keep the GI brown plastic grips on the pistol the same as it was carried by your father, they are part of the history

thats exactly how it looked when he brought it back, on a sentimental piece it's always best to leave it the way you received it, except the the cleaning & maintenance.

GI plastic grips were an improvement, they also worked well for tropical conditions, resistant to moisture and rot.

;)
 
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