Can you have a round chambered in a 1911 with the hammer down and thumb saftey on?
- Thread starter vmaam
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Nightcrawler
New member
Alrighty...
Condition One: Round in chamber, hammer back, saftey off
Condition One-A: Same as above, but with saftey on
Condition Two: Round in chamber, hammer down
Condition Three: Chamber empty
In a 1911, carrying with the hammer down is unadvisable. While the inertial firing pin will still prevent the weapon from going off if dropped on the hammer spur, the 1911 lacks any sort of decock function, which means you have to lower the hammer manually. If you do that, you're doing it at your own risk, as if you slip, you can only hope that the half-cock position will stop the hammer from hitting the firing pin. An accidental discharge can get you in all kinds of trouble.
Furthermore, the 1911 isn't designed to have the hammer manipulated manually. At least on my 1911, which has an extended grip saftey, the hammer is hard to reach with your firing hand thumb, and in a pinch, the time delay can get you in trouble.
Carrying a 1911 locked and cocked is perfectly safe. THREE things need to happen before a 1911 can fire. A), the grip saftey has to be squeezed. 2), the saftey has to be flicked off, and C), the trigger has to be pulled. With the saftey off, the trigger CANNOT be pulled unless the grip saftey is pressed in, and in order to do that, you need to have a positive grip on the firearm. If you're still nervous about it, just carry condition three, but practice practice practice the "Israeli Draw", making the racking of the slide habitually part of drawing your pistol.
And, since you asked, you can't flick on the saftey on any 1911 that I know of without the hammer being back.
Hope this helps! All this coming from a guy whose never carried before, and the 1911 is the only pistol I've ever shot! You sure learn a lot here at TFL!
Condition One: Round in chamber, hammer back, saftey off
Condition One-A: Same as above, but with saftey on
Condition Two: Round in chamber, hammer down
Condition Three: Chamber empty
In a 1911, carrying with the hammer down is unadvisable. While the inertial firing pin will still prevent the weapon from going off if dropped on the hammer spur, the 1911 lacks any sort of decock function, which means you have to lower the hammer manually. If you do that, you're doing it at your own risk, as if you slip, you can only hope that the half-cock position will stop the hammer from hitting the firing pin. An accidental discharge can get you in all kinds of trouble.
Furthermore, the 1911 isn't designed to have the hammer manipulated manually. At least on my 1911, which has an extended grip saftey, the hammer is hard to reach with your firing hand thumb, and in a pinch, the time delay can get you in trouble.
Carrying a 1911 locked and cocked is perfectly safe. THREE things need to happen before a 1911 can fire. A), the grip saftey has to be squeezed. 2), the saftey has to be flicked off, and C), the trigger has to be pulled. With the saftey off, the trigger CANNOT be pulled unless the grip saftey is pressed in, and in order to do that, you need to have a positive grip on the firearm. If you're still nervous about it, just carry condition three, but practice practice practice the "Israeli Draw", making the racking of the slide habitually part of drawing your pistol.
And, since you asked, you can't flick on the saftey on any 1911 that I know of without the hammer being back.
Hope this helps! All this coming from a guy whose never carried before, and the 1911 is the only pistol I've ever shot! You sure learn a lot here at TFL!
Must disagree with Nightcrawlers definitions:
Condition Zero: round chambered, hammer back, safety off
Condition One: round chambered, hammer back, saftey on (generally seen as the only way to carry a 1911, if you are not comfortable with this, carry something else)
Condition Two: round chambered, hammer down (carry SIGs and Berettas this way, not 1911)
Condition Three: full mag, chamber empty, hammer and safety position unimportant
And to the question in the thread title, you cannot engage the safety on traditional 1911s with the hammer down unless there is something mechanically wrong or you have had one of the DA conversions done
Condition Zero: round chambered, hammer back, safety off
Condition One: round chambered, hammer back, saftey on (generally seen as the only way to carry a 1911, if you are not comfortable with this, carry something else)
Condition Two: round chambered, hammer down (carry SIGs and Berettas this way, not 1911)
Condition Three: full mag, chamber empty, hammer and safety position unimportant
And to the question in the thread title, you cannot engage the safety on traditional 1911s with the hammer down unless there is something mechanically wrong or you have had one of the DA conversions done
Double Naught Spy
New member
Condition 1a? When did we get sub-alphanumeric definitions?
Seminole1986
New member
You must have missed the email on that one.
condition 1-a: cocked and locked, held in strong hand
condition 1-b: cocked and locked, held in weak hand
condition 1-c: cocked and locked, held in strong hand, but only on tuesdays
condition 1-d: cocked and locked but unloaded (usually reserved for democratic administrations)
condition 1-a: cocked and locked, held in strong hand
condition 1-b: cocked and locked, held in weak hand
condition 1-c: cocked and locked, held in strong hand, but only on tuesdays
condition 1-d: cocked and locked but unloaded (usually reserved for democratic administrations)
Walt Sherrill
New member
In answer to your first question: no, you can't have a round in the chamber and the safety on -- unless the hammer is cocked. (The lever safety won't engage -- at least that's the case with every 1911-based hangun I've handled. Maybe there are exceptions.)
Cocked and locked is at least as safe as all the alternatives -- when you consider you've got to grip the gun and engage the grip safety, release the frame safety, and then pull the trigger to fire it...
[Edited by Walt Sherrill on 01-24-2001 at 10:53 AM]
Cocked and locked is at least as safe as all the alternatives -- when you consider you've got to grip the gun and engage the grip safety, release the frame safety, and then pull the trigger to fire it...
[Edited by Walt Sherrill on 01-24-2001 at 10:53 AM]
If you're going to carry a M1911, carry it cocked and locked. If you are uncomfortable with cocked and locked, try carrying it around the house in a holster, chamber empty but cocked and locked. Do that for a week and I think you'll find that hammer won't fall and the safety won't disengage. If you're still not comfortable, then I'd argue that there are plenty of other action designs that would probably be better for you.
M1911
M1911
Double Naught Spy
New member
Actually on the 1911s I have, you can 1/2way engage the safety without the hammer locked. It is enough to keep the slide from moving, but I would not trust it to keep the hammer from moving.
The Fat Man
New member
Don't some models have a half-cock position? Personally, though, condition one (or 1-a, nightcrawler) is the only way to carry a 1911. Cocked and locked, m'boy, cocked and locked.
Nightcrawler
New member
1, 1a..
I heard somebody else call it that. I'd never heard of "condition" anything before I came to TFL.
Anyway though, my 1911 has a half cock, but I'd rather not try to lower the hammer on a live round.
I heard somebody else call it that. I'd never heard of "condition" anything before I came to TFL.
Anyway though, my 1911 has a half cock, but I'd rather not try to lower the hammer on a live round.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
vmaam, as others have noted, you cannot carry the 1911 with the hammer down and the safety on because the safety will only engage when the hammer is back. You could carry the 1911 with the hammer at half-cock and the safety engaged though (assumption on my part - you can do it with the Hi-Power, so I assume it is possible with some 1911s as well).
However, condition two carry (hammer down on a live round) is probably the LEAST safe method to carry any Browning designed pistol.
I know when I first started carrying a Hi-Power, I had reservations about carrying cocked and locked. This was mostly due to a complete lack of experience on my part. I have now been carrying a Hi-Power off and on for ten years and cocked and locked carry with it is completely safe (and I don't even have a grip safety like the 1911A1).
I recommend what others have suggested. Carry the weapon empty around your household for a week or so - check to see if the hammer is still back when you go to bed. I think you'll see that the design is quite safe.
(However, like any other mechanical device it doesn't hurt to send it in for a periodic inspection every two years or so to insure that everything is still working properly).
[Edited by Bartholomew Roberts on 01-26-2001 at 10:19 AM]
However, condition two carry (hammer down on a live round) is probably the LEAST safe method to carry any Browning designed pistol.
I know when I first started carrying a Hi-Power, I had reservations about carrying cocked and locked. This was mostly due to a complete lack of experience on my part. I have now been carrying a Hi-Power off and on for ten years and cocked and locked carry with it is completely safe (and I don't even have a grip safety like the 1911A1).
I recommend what others have suggested. Carry the weapon empty around your household for a week or so - check to see if the hammer is still back when you go to bed. I think you'll see that the design is quite safe.
(However, like any other mechanical device it doesn't hurt to send it in for a periodic inspection every two years or so to insure that everything is still working properly).
[Edited by Bartholomew Roberts on 01-26-2001 at 10:19 AM]
All whose experience I respect or who make sense in their explanations agree that there are only two ways to carry a 1911 of any make or model:
1. cocked and locked
2. hammer down on an empty chamber.
Everyone mentioned above, together with every 1911 manufacturer, and their lawyers, say NEVER let the hammer down on a chambered live round.
To someone inexperienced with the 1911, #1 and #2 above would seem to represent a trade-off between some lesser degree of safety in #1 versus an obviously slower response time in #2. I felt the same way when I first got a 1911, particularly worried about the safety snicking off by rubbing against the body or whatever. This bothered me, even though I knew that the gun could not fire, even with the safety off, unless the grip safety was depressed and the trigger pulled.
Based on universal praise for the product, I bought a Milt Sparks Summer Special II IWB holster. (Got mine from Brownell's, or go to the company web site.) With that holster, I see no way the safety could ever come off. The leather molds to the nooks and cranny of the gun, and immediately forms a deep groove that holds the safety. A good holster will greatly increase your confidence in "cocked and locked".
1. cocked and locked
2. hammer down on an empty chamber.
Everyone mentioned above, together with every 1911 manufacturer, and their lawyers, say NEVER let the hammer down on a chambered live round.
To someone inexperienced with the 1911, #1 and #2 above would seem to represent a trade-off between some lesser degree of safety in #1 versus an obviously slower response time in #2. I felt the same way when I first got a 1911, particularly worried about the safety snicking off by rubbing against the body or whatever. This bothered me, even though I knew that the gun could not fire, even with the safety off, unless the grip safety was depressed and the trigger pulled.
Based on universal praise for the product, I bought a Milt Sparks Summer Special II IWB holster. (Got mine from Brownell's, or go to the company web site.) With that holster, I see no way the safety could ever come off. The leather molds to the nooks and cranny of the gun, and immediately forms a deep groove that holds the safety. A good holster will greatly increase your confidence in "cocked and locked".
Gotta agree with Sigmund!
Locked and cocked only or empty and hammer down. All of my 1911's have the half-cock position and you can't put the safety on in that position. This is the design and is the safest way to carry a 1911! If you've got one that you don't care about, try locked and cocked and drop it a few 1000 times. I guarantee it won't fire!
Locked and cocked only or empty and hammer down. All of my 1911's have the half-cock position and you can't put the safety on in that position. This is the design and is the safest way to carry a 1911! If you've got one that you don't care about, try locked and cocked and drop it a few 1000 times. I guarantee it won't fire!
This idea makes me jumpy, people that can not lower the hammer on a gun that has a round in the chamber in a safe manner. Thats gun 101, if you cant do that you best not even own a gun. Much less try to use a Colt single six. A lot of the new guns are a pain to deal with on that but good god does the brain fall out when the hammer comes back or do people just not know how to handle guns today? Or is gun rag mania?
Seen a few decocker ADs before after the lever got fliped so I only flip and let that hammer snap down with the gun pointed in a safe place. I put a lot more faith in my thumb than that decocker.
Seen a few decocker ADs before after the lever got fliped so I only flip and let that hammer snap down with the gun pointed in a safe place. I put a lot more faith in my thumb than that decocker.Radom:
I've owned and carried a M1911 for years and NEVER had to lower the hammer on a live round. Why in world would anyone need to do so? It doesn't make a M1911 safer, in fact, it makes it less safe.
I can understand needing to decock a loaded revolver. For example, you're on the firing line, you've cocked the revolver, but someone calls a cease-fire and you need to unload your gun. You can't swing out the cylinder with the revolver cocked, so you need to decock on a live chamber.
But for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would need or want to do this with M1911.
M1911
I've owned and carried a M1911 for years and NEVER had to lower the hammer on a live round. Why in world would anyone need to do so? It doesn't make a M1911 safer, in fact, it makes it less safe.
I can understand needing to decock a loaded revolver. For example, you're on the firing line, you've cocked the revolver, but someone calls a cease-fire and you need to unload your gun. You can't swing out the cylinder with the revolver cocked, so you need to decock on a live chamber.
But for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would need or want to do this with M1911.
M1911
1911,
First of all, many of us remember the 1st and by far the most important cardinal rule of gun safety; Don't point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot. Everytime a person holsters a pistol, they violate that rule. To make matters worse, sometimes, particularly in cases of CCW, it may be pointing at something we are real proud of. Add that to the fact that the hammer must be cocked in order to fire and it is pretty easy to get the notion that the hammer has to strike the firing pin with force acquired by being flung forward by the spring; Like swinging a hammer at a nail. Following that line of reasoning is why so many people are lead to the belief that if the hammer isn't cocked, it can't be flung at the firing pin (which represents the nail) and therefore the pistol won't fire. That's why (rightly or wrongly) people want to lower the hammer on the loaded chamber........so that hammer can't be driven against the firing pin.
In addition, and I am quoting from the label on the box of my 1979 vintage Colt Series 70, which for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the pistol, it is a Single action without any firing pin block but does have a thumb safety and Grip safety, it says " Warning. Avoid accidents Do not carry this firearm with a cartridge in the chamber"
That's where the confusion comes from about lowering the hammer but then you know too much about these pistol not to know that already.....but I believe you asked.
While I can also not think of any reason to do so, I would not hesitate to point the pistol down range or at the ground and lower the hammer. If in doubt, and probably anyway, I would use my weak hand to lower the hammer.
PigPen
First of all, many of us remember the 1st and by far the most important cardinal rule of gun safety; Don't point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot. Everytime a person holsters a pistol, they violate that rule. To make matters worse, sometimes, particularly in cases of CCW, it may be pointing at something we are real proud of. Add that to the fact that the hammer must be cocked in order to fire and it is pretty easy to get the notion that the hammer has to strike the firing pin with force acquired by being flung forward by the spring; Like swinging a hammer at a nail. Following that line of reasoning is why so many people are lead to the belief that if the hammer isn't cocked, it can't be flung at the firing pin (which represents the nail) and therefore the pistol won't fire. That's why (rightly or wrongly) people want to lower the hammer on the loaded chamber........so that hammer can't be driven against the firing pin.
In addition, and I am quoting from the label on the box of my 1979 vintage Colt Series 70, which for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the pistol, it is a Single action without any firing pin block but does have a thumb safety and Grip safety, it says " Warning. Avoid accidents Do not carry this firearm with a cartridge in the chamber"
That's where the confusion comes from about lowering the hammer but then you know too much about these pistol not to know that already.....but I believe you asked.
While I can also not think of any reason to do so, I would not hesitate to point the pistol down range or at the ground and lower the hammer. If in doubt, and probably anyway, I would use my weak hand to lower the hammer.
PigPen