A friend reloaded 10 .30-06 rounds. New resized Remington brass. Winchester primers. Savage rifle. Primers were seated below surface. 7 of the 10 rounds would not fire after 3 attempts. Bullets and powder were removed and primed cases were reloaded in rifle. All 7 primers fired on first attempt. He did say that the primers had light strikes when they did not fire. Any ideas?
Can someone explain this?
- Thread starter AL45
- Start date
Any number of things could have caused the problem. With regard to primers, you seat a primer till it bottoms out. If we look closely at a new primer the anvil actually extends out of the cup. Seating till the primer bottoms out in the primer pocket insures the anvil is set. The fact that a primer is below the case head means nothing if the primer has not bottomed out.
Ron
Stats Shooter
New member
Usually, high primers do not lead to a misfire....high primers lead to inadvertently firing in free floating firing pin semi automatic rifles.
Sounds to me like the bullets were seated too long, which didn't allow the bolt to fully close and lock.....once the bullets were pulled the bolt closed and primer fired......when the bolt is not fully closed usually the firing pin won't strike the primer hard enough to cause ignition.
But it could be higher primers too. Usual primer seating depth is .0085-.016 depending on brand.
I have seen this in semi-auto's but not usually in bolt action guns....my first step would be to check chamber length and check bullet seating....i bet you'll find it was too long
Sounds to me like the bullets were seated too long, which didn't allow the bolt to fully close and lock.....once the bullets were pulled the bolt closed and primer fired......when the bolt is not fully closed usually the firing pin won't strike the primer hard enough to cause ignition.
But it could be higher primers too. Usual primer seating depth is .0085-.016 depending on brand.
I have seen this in semi-auto's but not usually in bolt action guns....my first step would be to check chamber length and check bullet seating....i bet you'll find it was too long
Mississippi: Are you saying there may have been too much head space?
Wouldn't too much head space cause a problem that would make it imposable for the firing pin to strike the primer with full power?
It sounds like the bolt assembly is ok. Do you agree?
The bolt not being fully closed makes since since the firing pin may not reach full primer contact.
If the bolt isn't closed fully the bolt face would fail to advance all the way causing a head space gap beyond the firing pin reach.
Is that where we are?
Wouldn't too much head space cause a problem that would make it imposable for the firing pin to strike the primer with full power?
It sounds like the bolt assembly is ok. Do you agree?
The bolt not being fully closed makes since since the firing pin may not reach full primer contact.
If the bolt isn't closed fully the bolt face would fail to advance all the way causing a head space gap beyond the firing pin reach.
Is that where we are?
Savage headspace, no problem.
Try some factory ammo. If you have misfires , clean the firing pin channel. An old Savage may need a new firing pin spring.
If only reloads misfiring, try a shorter OAL, bullets seated deeper. The strike of the firing pin should push the cartridge forward, till its stopped by the extractor. But if the pin strike is seating the bullets deeper, it deadens the pins velocity.
Headspace is not a problem, as i have fired 223 with the shoulder of the primed brass removed.
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The firing pin strike can set a 223 shoulder back .006" A 2nd pin strike, even more. Dont know about 30-06 set back.
Try some factory ammo. If you have misfires , clean the firing pin channel. An old Savage may need a new firing pin spring.
If only reloads misfiring, try a shorter OAL, bullets seated deeper. The strike of the firing pin should push the cartridge forward, till its stopped by the extractor. But if the pin strike is seating the bullets deeper, it deadens the pins velocity.
Headspace is not a problem, as i have fired 223 with the shoulder of the primed brass removed.
The firing pin strike can set a 223 shoulder back .006" A 2nd pin strike, even more. Dont know about 30-06 set back.
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Stats Shooter
New member
Yes Longshot,
I assume the gun is properly headspaced since it is a factory rifle and I assume it fires factory fine. So I am just saying improper seating of a bullet can cause bolt closure issues....in a bolt gun if you can get the round jammed in and the bolt cams close all the way it will usually fire, but since I am not there to see, I am just saying that could be the issue. I have also seen bolt guns with weak cams and -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-ty oversized wolf ammo fail to close.....but a savage 110 is a good quality rifle.
It's something for the guy to check along with primer seating depth.....if it isn't that then it's likely something mechanical since the primers fired
I assume the gun is properly headspaced since it is a factory rifle and I assume it fires factory fine. So I am just saying improper seating of a bullet can cause bolt closure issues....in a bolt gun if you can get the round jammed in and the bolt cams close all the way it will usually fire, but since I am not there to see, I am just saying that could be the issue. I have also seen bolt guns with weak cams and -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-ty oversized wolf ammo fail to close.....but a savage 110 is a good quality rifle.
It's something for the guy to check along with primer seating depth.....if it isn't that then it's likely something mechanical since the primers fired
He said the rifle has only had about 200 rounds through it and factory cartridges fire just fine. He seated the bullets by inserting the rounds in the rifle and closing the bolt. He then seated them deeper using his press so the bullet would'nt start against the rifling. I'm not sure exactly how much more he seated them. One of the reloads he showed me definitely had a high primer. Is it possible that the primers were too high, but the three failed attempts just happened to properly seat the primer to the point that on the fourth attempt, which was without the bullet, the primer was able to ignite? I know it sounds crazy.
Stats Shooter
New member
AL45,
Then it sounds like high primers. It is very possible that the firing pin was actually driving the primer into the pockets deeper rather than making a nice deep strike.... Essentially the energy of the firing pin was being used to drive the primer deeper, you said the strikes looked light initially.
Primers should be seated at least .008 deep.
Then it sounds like high primers. It is very possible that the firing pin was actually driving the primer into the pockets deeper rather than making a nice deep strike.... Essentially the energy of the firing pin was being used to drive the primer deeper, you said the strikes looked light initially.
Primers should be seated at least .008 deep.
condor bravo
New member
Although the brass was new, it is also indicated it was resized. Does that mean he full length resized the new brass prior to loading (not necessary of course)? If so the shoulders could have been set back excessively, thereby in effect creating an excessive headspace situation. Another possibility might be something creating a sluggish firing pin but not likely. Sounds like excessive headspace due to over sizing.
I would agree with the others whit tearing down bolt and cleaning. Even new rifles can come with debris from factory. Most firearms are tested before shipping from factory. So the chance you have unwanted debris in pin channel is possible. I would also agree that primers not seating 100% can cause this. My next thought is how long or how much knowledge does he have with reloading? It would seem more likely this is operator error. I've only been reloading for a few years and have had alot of trial and error myself. Have him retry reloading his 10 rounds again and confirm primer seating. What is he using to seat primers? (Type of equipment)
Again, I received a call from a very disciplined reloader; he was at the range with a shooter that purchased a new rifle and new ammo. Out of the first box of 20 R-P ammo 5 failed to fire. He wanted to know what was wrong with R-P ammo. I had to say "I do not know, the phone number is on the box, call Remington". Basically that was about it and then he shows up at my place with a box if Remington 30/06 with 15 fired cases and 5 that failed to fire.
I dug out more equipment than we had room for and started. Most of the equipment he was not familiar with; I was impressed with the fired cases, the fired cases would fit my 30/06 chamber gage with slight thump pressure. We weighed the fired cases, the weight matched.
We pulled down the failed to fire cases, we weight the bullets, powder and cases, again I was impressed. The length of the fired cases from the shoulder to the case head matched the length of the failed to fire cases from the shoulder to the case head.
He said all of the failed to fire cases had at least 5 chances to fire in three different 30/06 rifles. And then I removed the primers, examined then and then put them back into the cases they came from. After installing the primers I chambered the cases with primers, no powder/no bullet in one of my M1917 with a killer firing pin. We busted the primers one at a time and then measured the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. The length was the same after firing the primers and before firing the primers.
He did not keep the box the ammo came in and he did not get enough information from the shooter for contact. I believe my M1917 with the killer firing pin would have busted the primers after the failed to fire primers were hit 5 times.
Anyhow, he went home and called me about 2 hours later; seems he could not find the equipment we used when measuring the failed to fire and fired cases for sale on the Internet. I suggested he set aside some time so we could make what ever it was he wanted.
F. Guffey
I dug out more equipment than we had room for and started. Most of the equipment he was not familiar with; I was impressed with the fired cases, the fired cases would fit my 30/06 chamber gage with slight thump pressure. We weighed the fired cases, the weight matched.
We pulled down the failed to fire cases, we weight the bullets, powder and cases, again I was impressed. The length of the fired cases from the shoulder to the case head matched the length of the failed to fire cases from the shoulder to the case head.
He said all of the failed to fire cases had at least 5 chances to fire in three different 30/06 rifles. And then I removed the primers, examined then and then put them back into the cases they came from. After installing the primers I chambered the cases with primers, no powder/no bullet in one of my M1917 with a killer firing pin. We busted the primers one at a time and then measured the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. The length was the same after firing the primers and before firing the primers.
He did not keep the box the ammo came in and he did not get enough information from the shooter for contact. I believe my M1917 with the killer firing pin would have busted the primers after the failed to fire primers were hit 5 times.
Anyhow, he went home and called me about 2 hours later; seems he could not find the equipment we used when measuring the failed to fire and fired cases for sale on the Internet. I suggested he set aside some time so we could make what ever it was he wanted.
F. Guffey
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…and there are other issues. Board member Hummer70 spoke with a design engineer at one of the major makers who didn't even know there was such a thing as a firing pin energy specification, something traditionally tested by firing pin impact on a copper pellet in a steel "cartridge" with a solid primer pocket bottom. So, it may be beneficial to get a Wolff spring for it that is on the heavy side.
Seating primers is something most people don't know the specifications for, either. Unfortunately, different makers have different primer pocket depths and different anvil heights. Ideally you seat until the anvil touches the bottom of the pocket then go in an additional several thousandths to slightly compress the primer pellet mix bridging between the bottom of the cup and the tip of the anvil. Allan Jones, who worked on primers at CCI, calls that setting the bridge. Old Olin and Remington specs call it reconsolidation of the primers, and in the late 1970's were calling for the additional compression to be between 0.002"-0.006". Later publications (1980's) called for 0.002"-0.004". In the mid 1990's, Federal told Dave Milosovich that it should be 0.002" for small rifle primers and 0.003" for large rifle primers that they make.
Failure to add that little bit of compression results in less regular ignition timing and intensity. In the mid-90's, the late Dan Hackett wrote:
So, even though there are limits from the manufacturers, it seems that overdoing reconsolidation is better than under-doing it, where reconsolidation is concerned.
BTW, in a declassified McDonnell Douglas primer document, they mention getting lot numbers of primers with extra tall primer anvils and matching them to shallow primer pockets so they would make the reconsolidation spec just by seating the primer flush. That's not an average condition, but it illustrates the variations involved that are possible. The Forster Co-ax press's priming tool seats primers 0.005" inches below flush in an attempt to hit the best number, but if you use a primer pocket depth uniforming tool, it cuts the pockets too deep for that number to work and you have to seat still deeper.
Your best bet is always to measure the depth of your primer pockets and the total height of your primers+anvil feet. Take average values for both. Subtract the amount of compression of the bridge you want from the primer and anvil total height, then subtract the depth of the primer pocket from that result. What remains is how deeply those primers should be seated. It will normally be a negative number showing that it his how far below flush the primer should be. If you have very tall primer+anvil numbers and very shallow pockets, you might actually get a positive number (seating above flush) but I haven't run into that personally, and it risks slamfires in self-loaders and should not be used in them.
Seating primers is something most people don't know the specifications for, either. Unfortunately, different makers have different primer pocket depths and different anvil heights. Ideally you seat until the anvil touches the bottom of the pocket then go in an additional several thousandths to slightly compress the primer pellet mix bridging between the bottom of the cup and the tip of the anvil. Allan Jones, who worked on primers at CCI, calls that setting the bridge. Old Olin and Remington specs call it reconsolidation of the primers, and in the late 1970's were calling for the additional compression to be between 0.002"-0.006". Later publications (1980's) called for 0.002"-0.004". In the mid 1990's, Federal told Dave Milosovich that it should be 0.002" for small rifle primers and 0.003" for large rifle primers that they make.
Failure to add that little bit of compression results in less regular ignition timing and intensity. In the mid-90's, the late Dan Hackett wrote:
"There is some debate about how deeply primers should be seated. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this, but I have experimented with seating primers to different depths and seeing what happens on the chronograph and target paper, and so far I’ve obtained my best results seating them hard, pushing them in past the point where the anvil can be felt hitting the bottom of the pocket. Doing this, I can almost always get velocity standard deviations of less than 10 feet per second, even with magnum cartridges and long-bodied standards on the ’06 case, and I haven’t been able to accomplish that seating primers to lesser depths."
Dan Hackett
Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Precision Shooting Inc., Pub. (R.I.P.), Manchester, CT, 1995, p. 271.
Dan Hackett
Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Precision Shooting Inc., Pub. (R.I.P.), Manchester, CT, 1995, p. 271.
So, even though there are limits from the manufacturers, it seems that overdoing reconsolidation is better than under-doing it, where reconsolidation is concerned.
BTW, in a declassified McDonnell Douglas primer document, they mention getting lot numbers of primers with extra tall primer anvils and matching them to shallow primer pockets so they would make the reconsolidation spec just by seating the primer flush. That's not an average condition, but it illustrates the variations involved that are possible. The Forster Co-ax press's priming tool seats primers 0.005" inches below flush in an attempt to hit the best number, but if you use a primer pocket depth uniforming tool, it cuts the pockets too deep for that number to work and you have to seat still deeper.
Your best bet is always to measure the depth of your primer pockets and the total height of your primers+anvil feet. Take average values for both. Subtract the amount of compression of the bridge you want from the primer and anvil total height, then subtract the depth of the primer pocket from that result. What remains is how deeply those primers should be seated. It will normally be a negative number showing that it his how far below flush the primer should be. If you have very tall primer+anvil numbers and very shallow pockets, you might actually get a positive number (seating above flush) but I haven't run into that personally, and it risks slamfires in self-loaders and should not be used in them.
New ammo fires without a problem, new ammo is minimum length as being the came as full length sized because that is all a die can do. meaning a case die is designed to return the case to minimum length; to reduce the length of the case trom the shoulder to the case head beyond minimum length/full length size a reloader would be required to go out and purchase a feeler gage 'AND THEN
" learn to use it. I size/form cases for short chamber. I have no problem shortening the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .012"; the one thing I do find most difficult to do is bump the shoulder and then there is 'head space of the case', my cases do not have head space. My cases have clearance, the clearance can be .000" (zero as in no clearance), I can have clearance on the negative side and I can have clearance on the positive side. I have one chamber that is .016" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than a minimum length gull length sized case or .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber. And I have never has a fail to fire case in that rifle.
I am sure everyone responding to OP's question knows what rifle he is talking about, I don't.
F. Guffey
JT-AR-MG42
New member
Interesting read here.
I'm leaning in the camp with condor bravo.
Could have been excessive headspace.
When the bullets were pulled to empty powder (OP does not describe method)
the neck/shoulder area of the case could have been bumped forward enough to headspace the empty cartridge.
JT
I'm leaning in the camp with condor bravo.
Could have been excessive headspace.
When the bullets were pulled to empty powder (OP does not describe method)
the neck/shoulder area of the case could have been bumped forward enough to headspace the empty cartridge.
JT
If he closed the bolt on the case when seating the bullets I wonder
In a perfect world I believe the bullet would have stayed in the chamber and after that would be the problem of cleaning the powder out of the action. And then there is the rifle; it is a Savage and the claim his primers had light strikes. And then again I wonder if someone has made adjustments to the barrel. Problems can be created that can cause light firing pin strikes.Again, New factory over the counter factory ammo works, seems the best fix would be to make his reloads look like factory ammo' problem, by now the OP has shot all of his factory ammo and has nothing to compare his reloads to.
F. Guffey
There could be multiples involved.
A marginal firing pin that is exacerbated to failure by the case size (sloppy in the chamber and moved when firing pin hit) and or the primers not being seated solidly enough.
Repeat with minimum shoulder setback as you have fire formed the cases, seat the primers as deep as you can.
One step or two, both are solid reloading practices so both should be used
regardless and then who cares what the issue is?
Also get the firing pin protrusion spec and check as it would be unfortunate to be hunting and have something like cold also make it manifest itself and there you are with a dud, or duds and lost shot or shots
A marginal firing pin that is exacerbated to failure by the case size (sloppy in the chamber and moved when firing pin hit) and or the primers not being seated solidly enough.
Repeat with minimum shoulder setback as you have fire formed the cases, seat the primers as deep as you can.
One step or two, both are solid reloading practices so both should be used
regardless and then who cares what the issue is?
Also get the firing pin protrusion spec and check as it would be unfortunate to be hunting and have something like cold also make it manifest itself and there you are with a dud, or duds and lost shot or shots