Can someone define "dum-dum" ammo for me ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter RH
  • Start date Start date
R

RH

New member
Alright, get the puns out of your system if you feel the need, but in NJ we have restrictions on "hollow-point, dum-dum, and armor-piercing" ammo. (as a side note, be very careful when they start labelling you or your posessions with hyphenated descriptors, i.e. "gun-lobby" "assault-style", "cop-killer"... you get the drift.

Anyway, what's a dum-dum ?
 
Dunno much about it, but this is what I heard:

"In the late 1800s, the Indian Army arsenal at Dum Dum, near Calcutta, developed a variation of the FMJ design where the jacket did not cover the nose of the bullet. The soft lead nose was found to still expand in flesh while the remaining jacket still prevented lead fouling in the barrel. "

I suppose this is what we know as a jacketed soft point (JSP) round.
 
I'm sure that some of our more knowledgeable members can provide a more accurate definition, but as I recall, dum-dum bullets were a soft lead bullet that supposedly caused a horrendous wound. As such, they were considered uncivilized for use in warfare and subsequently banned after WWI.
 
RH,

I believe that dum-dums were first banned by some military treaty. It seem that some troops were cutting of the tips of their bullets, to expose the lead, and then cut an "X" into the tip so it would expand and creat a more serious wound then the FMJ bullet would.

If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me, but thats my take on it.
 
I read of some folks in the younger part of last century cutting an X in the nose of the bullet, thus allowing for the jacket to peel back and the bullet to expand more. They were referred to as 'Dum-dums" but I am not sure if the reference was correct.
Oops, Badriver, you hit the button while I was playing with my watch. Same info.

------------------
Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[This message has been edited by Apple a Day (edited October 09, 2000).]
 
RH,
NJ Statute 2C:39-3 "Prohibited Weapons and Devices", in paragraph "f", clearly defines what they mean by "body armor penetrating bullets", but gives no definition of what they regard as a "hollow nose" or "dum-dum"
bullet. Of course "hollow nose" bullets are self evident, but since "dum-dum" bullets are not defined, a anti-gun crusading DA could pretty much claim that any bullet, except a FMJ, is a "dum-dum". Kinda scary, isn't it?

Seems strange that they would spend an entire paragraph defining what a "body armor penetrating bullet" is, but make no mention of what is considered a "dum-dum".

So, to any lawyers out there - since the State does not define what they mean by a "dum-dum" bullet, is it therefore easier for the State to convict on, or easier for my lawyer to defend, a "dum-dum" possession charge? Just curious, in case some Ya-hoo DA wants to define my Federal EFMJs, or SJSPs, "dum-dum" bullets.

Oh, and for what it's worth - for a bullet to be considered "body armor penetrating", it must fit three different criteria, one of which is that it must be designed primarily for use in a hand gun. So, currently, no rifle ammo falls under this restriction.
 
A .30-06 would probably transform the wearer of a bullet-proof vest
into Swiss cheese at 100 yards, regardless of the vest protection
class. Chances are I can stick a pole through the wound channel and
have it come out at the back again. Especially with FMJ ammo.
 
I went to [URL}www.google.com{/URL] and did a search on dum-dum bullet and found a reference on The Probert Encyclopedia

http://www.fas.org/news/reference/probert/F3.HTM under dum-dum bullet

The dum-dum bullet was a British military bullet developed in India's Dum-Dum Arsenal and used on India's North West Frontier and in the Sudan in 1897 and 1898. It was a jacketed .303 cal. British bullet with the jacket nose left open to expose the lead core in the hope of increasing effectiveness

This eventually became the bullet two deep right angled cuts across the nose of the bullet.

I still haven't managed to find a drawing of one, but just imagine taking a .45 lead slug and making a fine cut across the nose to about three quarters of the distance between the nose and the case, and then making a second cut at right angles to the first.

Or, you can make one and fire it into a couple of phone books or seferal water jugs in a row.
 
Sorry. I was trying to post when this forum was going into the tank. I didn't think any of them got through.

I found a couple of other references in case any body's interested.

http://www.saami.org/glossary.html under bullet, dum-dum

A British military bullet developed in India. s Dum-Dum Arsenal in 1897-98. It was a jacketed .303 caliber rifle bullet with the jacket nose left open to expose the lead core in hopes of greater effectiveness. Further development of the bullet was not pursued because the Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed such bullets for warfare.

http://www.nraila.org/research/19990729-SecondAmendment-003.html

DUM-DUM BULLET: A British military bullet developed in India*s Dum- Dum Arsenal and used on India's North West Frontier and in the Sudan in 1897 and 1898. It was a jacketed .303 cal. British bullet with the jacket nose left open to expose the lead core in the hope of increasing effectiveness. Improvement was not pursued, for the Hague Convention of 1899 (not the Geneva Convention of 1925, which dealt largely with gas warfare) outlawed such bullets for warfare. Often "dum-dum" is misused as a term for any soft-nosed or hollow- pointed hunting bullet [Emphasis mine]


[This message has been edited by Rick Solomon (edited October 12, 2000).]
 
A "dum-dum" round is a lead bullet with two perpendicular lengthwise cuts in the nose (X), causing it to fragment in flesh.

------------------
I see no elephant in my cellar. If there were an elephant in my cellar, I would surely see it. Therefore, there is no elephant in my cellar.

http://www.ety.com/tell/why.html
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badriver:
RH,

I believe that dum-dums were first banned by some military treaty. It seem that some troops were cutting of the tips of their bullets, to expose the lead, and then cut an "X" into the tip so it would expand and creat a more serious wound then the FMJ bullet would.

If I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me, but thats my take on it.[/quote]
expansion(pun intended) on this from my limited knowledge of these(sorry but my thing is AP ammo)
before the geneva convention banned use of soft tip, lead, hollow point or other expanding ammo, soldiers were(like said above) cutting the tips off their bullets, making X's in them, little hole in the front big hole in the back.
also from what i know and what has been said here some bullets with soft tips were manufactured for some military. dont know which one tho.
these little trinkets were expressly popular during the boer war, or at least books and movies on that particular deal would have one believe so, however i am sure that they were popular during WW1 WW2 korea, vietnam, and all other conflicts in the last 100 years.




[This message has been edited by guerilla1138 (edited October 13, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mussi:
A .30-06 would probably transform the wearer of a bullet-proof vest
into Swiss cheese at 100 yards, regardless of the vest protection
class. Chances are I can stick a pole through the wound channel and
have it come out at the back again. Especially with FMJ ammo.[/quote]


oh yeah, and one cool thing is that the only legal ammo that is truly defined as armor peircing is old military surplus steel core AP rounds, in 30.06.
these are the FMJ's with the black paint on the tip of the bullet. they have a pointed steel core in them, no or very little lead, just steel.
these would go thru most things at 100 yards.
so would a lead core FMJ.

i have had solid lead 30.06 rounds go thru quarter inch cast iron at 25 yards so.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top